S4 Ep3: Learning across generations to manage India’s electronic waste: A conversation with T. S. Krishnan

Season #4 September 24, 2026

“On the one hand, I was reading the literature and, on the other hand, I was also talking to people in the field, different stakeholders.. . and what I realized was that there was a very strong disconnect between what I was reading in the journal articles and what I was seeing in the field.”

In this episode, T.S. Krishnan discusses his book, Untapped Knowledge in India’s E-Waste Industry: A Roadmap to Strengthen the Informal Economy (Palgrave 2023), which provides in-depth research into the value of informal processors in India’s e-waste industry and its stakeholders.

Topics covered in this episode include:

Overview of the e-waste industry in India
Disconnect between academic literature and what is happening in the field
How individual consumers can help address the growing e-waste challenge
Advice for finishing a book

Speaker Bio

T S Krishnan is an independent scholar with expertise working across disciplines such as supply chain management, ethnography, and sustainability. He has served as a visiting faculty at Indian Institute of Management Nagpur and Ashoka University. Krishnan has worked in industries including sales enablement, data science, artificial intelligence, and product management. He received his PhD from Indian Institute of Management Bangalore.

Links

Untapped Knowledge in India’s E-Waste Industry: A Roadmap to Strengthen the Informal Economy (Palgrave 2023)

Sign up for Krishnan's Newsletter "SCRAPPED: Afterlives of Technology: Economics, Politics, and Culture of India's Recycling Industry."

Episode Transcript

00:00:04:02 - 00:00:35:21
Erica Machulak
Hello and welcome back to the Hikma Collective podcast. Today's episode we are chatting with one of my favorite people in the world, TS Krishnan, who is an expert in electronic waste management systems in India's informal economy. He'll tell you more in a moment about what that means, but I had the honor of working with Krishnan as an independent scholar whose career has flourished and thrived, thrived in all kinds of ways since we started working together, he was, I think, Hickman's very first client.

00:00:35:23 - 00:01:00:08
Erica Machulak
And, he's just been I learned so much from him, not only about his work, but about how he thinks and how he approaches this amazing, community driven research. If you wanna learn more about Crichton's work, he's published a book with Palgrave called Untapped Knowledge in India's E-waste Industry A Roadmap to Strengthen the Informal Economy. And you should you should check it out.

00:01:00:08 - 00:01:28:23
Erica Machulak
We'll also include in the show notes links to some of his other media writing, as well as his newsletter, which are great places to learn to think about, not just electronic waste and its development in India, but about how colonial knowledge systems really do impact policy and how we can work creatively with entrepreneurial approaches to find new pathways toward collaboration and sustainability across all different kinds of industries.

00:01:28:23 - 00:01:47:11
Erica Machulak
His approach is really unique and fascinating, and I anticipate that you will learn a lot in this episode about things that were totally new to me that started sort of building.

00:01:47:13 - 00:02:03:21
Erica Machulak
Welcome, Krishnan, to the Hikma Collective podcast. We're delighted to have you here today. After after getting to know your work over so many years. And I'll also call out that we're here with us. Simangele Mabena, do you want to introduce yourself?

00:02:03:23 - 00:02:26:05
Simangele Mabena
Hi everyone. My name is Simangele Mabena. I am also currently working with Erica in the collective. I am working with supporting our client bases and I'm very excited because Krishnan was one of the first clients that I started working with and I'm excited to share, his work with everybody today.

00:02:26:07 - 00:02:28:17
Erica Machulak
And this is your first time on the podcast, right?

00:02:28:19 - 00:02:32:19
Simangele Mabena
It is indeed. So I'm quite, I'm quite excited.

00:02:32:21 - 00:02:40:20
Erica Machulak
Glad. Glad to have you here. All right, so, Krishnan, what is the title of your book?

00:02:40:22 - 00:02:52:00
T S Krishnan
Hi. Hi. Hello. So the title is, Untapped knowledge in India's E-waste industry A roadmap to strengthen the Informal Economy.

00:02:52:02 - 00:03:01:15
Erica Machulak
Nice. And I just. And it's just come out recently. How how does it feel now that it's on the shelves?

00:03:01:17 - 00:03:41:18
T S Krishnan
Okay. My, my, it's it's a mix of emotions, but but primarily a sense of calmness. A sense of calmness that that comes, from the from the fact that, you know, I had promised my, stakeholders. But the people who spend their time and knowledge with me by sharing the details of how this industry works. And so at that time, I had promised them that, you know, I will, I will write this up and I will ensure that we have some kind of a debate on this, some kind of a discussion on this and getting into a format of an academic book is a first step in that direction.

00:03:41:20 - 00:03:51:13
T S Krishnan
So quite happy and quite calm that okay, now now that it is out there, I can reach out to my stakeholders again. And renew my conversations with them.

00:03:51:15 - 00:03:54:22
Erica Machulak
And when you say your stakeholders who are they.

00:03:54:24 - 00:04:24:18
T S Krishnan
So, so they are e-waste recyclers and companies that recycle e-waste. Communities that recycle e-waste, they are not companies generally. So, so they are like you cannot even call them as small and medium enterprises. So they are called as small. 1% business, 2% business. Communities, their intergenerational communities that have been recycling e-waste for a long time.

00:04:24:22 - 00:04:56:20
T S Krishnan
So that is that group. And then you have policy makers, that is persons from the government departments who make policies and to enforce these e-waste policies. And then you have NGOs, individuals who work with these communities with which I am calling them as informal sector or the informal economy. And we also work with these communities to, to help them to become part of those, you know, large companies and to provide the awareness.

00:04:56:22 - 00:05:23:16
T S Krishnan
And then you have and then, okay, I'm just trying to recollect, some of the major players and then retailers, retailers who who collect e waste from people like you and me. And then manufacturers, producers, companies that make electronic products, laptops and mobile phones and etcetera, etcetera, all the electronic products that you see.

00:05:23:18 - 00:05:46:23
T S Krishnan
And incinerators, you know. So, so these are very interesting companies who generally burn the waste. Any kind of waste, not necessarily e-waste. So for them any, any waste, they get various burning and, and the energy they create, or the energy or the gas they create from burning, that is what their business is all about.

00:05:47:01 - 00:05:52:02
T S Krishnan
So, they are people who just collect the waste and there is burning. They call this incinerators.

00:05:52:04 - 00:06:18:22
Erica Machulak
Okay, so we're going to talk more about who your stakeholders are in your field work. It's really clear from the list that you're laying out that you've been doing deep systems level work. And one of the things I have always admired about your project is the sense of accountability that you've demonstrated to the people who took the time to provide insights, sometimes in contexts where it's really hard to get an interview, there's a lot of trust that has to be built.

00:06:18:24 - 00:06:24:12
Erica Machulak
But before we dive into that, what is e-waste?

00:06:24:14 - 00:06:53:07
T S Krishnan
Well, e-waste is electronic waste. Okay. And so in, in our context, the laptops, the computers, the iPads, even the headsets that we use for even for this podcast recording, once we discard them after its use, either the either it would have been either your laptop is dead, you cannot work it anymore, or sometimes you might get a new version of your product and you might just replace your old product with a new one.

00:06:53:09 - 00:07:11:08
T S Krishnan
So in such cases, you call that as e-waste. So if I discard the laptop. So right now I'm doing this podcast on a laptop after a year, if I if I want to upgrade this to a new version, I might buy a new laptop. So what do I do with the old one? I might just keep it inside my drawer, or I might just give it away.

00:07:11:10 - 00:07:24:11
T S Krishnan
I might just put that in a bin that is e-waste can. And it also could be toys. So it could be it could be anything that runs on a battery that runs on a wire, electricity and so on.

00:07:24:13 - 00:07:27:15
Erica Machulak
So my nephew's a little battery powered cars. Are those e-waste too..

00:07:27:17 - 00:07:48:22
T S Krishnan
It is e-waste. Yes, e-waste with a lot of plastic in it because it's a toy car, a lot of plastic. It is e-waste, of course. Then, of course, the definitions can be, very tricky. But in general you call that e-waste. And then and here is the thing. So I and you all the so called, you know, modern educated elite we call that as e-waste.

00:07:48:24 - 00:08:02:09
T S Krishnan
But the actual people on the ground, the recyclers, they never call them as e-waste. They call this as material for them. My laptop is material for them. It's scrap for them. E-waste is a term invented by people like you and me.

00:08:02:11 - 00:08:06:05
Erica Machulak
Okay. And why do you think that distinction is important?

00:08:06:07 - 00:08:34:00
T S Krishnan
Because, so for the recyclers, even before, you know, even before the big governments or the big policy think tanks, before they were discussing about this idea of e-waste, they were the people who were, who were making good use of this old discarded materials. It could be furniture. It could be it could be your old refrigerator and so on.

00:08:34:02 - 00:08:52:11
T S Krishnan
So before these computers and IT products came, they were so there were electronic products, there were Rolex watches, and there were many other products. So for the recyclers, this is just another waste stream for them. And they don't call it as a waste because for them this is a raw material for them.

00:08:52:13 - 00:08:53:21
Erica Machulak
Raw material for what.

00:08:53:23 - 00:09:15:12
T S Krishnan
Yeah. So raw material for them so that they know they can find useful ways, to, either disassemble my laptop or take out some metals from it or take out some parts from it and sell it in in another market so that they can make money. In a sense, they are also so. So recyclers are business people, right?

00:09:15:12 - 00:09:37:04
T S Krishnan
So and they are running a business. And to run that business, my, my and your e waste is a is a raw material for them so that they can do the processing or whatever needs to be done to sell in the downstream markets. So it could be like, you know, they could be reusing my laptop, making it functional and then selling in the second hand market.

00:09:37:06 - 00:09:56:21
T S Krishnan
Or it could be that, they are taking out some metals from the printed circuit boards of my laptop. It could be anything. So historically, for years they have been doing this. So. So that's why they don't call it as EVs. So they say that okay, I need to get material from Krishnan. I need to get the scrap from Krishnan so that I can do x, y, z.

00:09:56:21 - 00:10:10:24
T S Krishnan
I can do my process and then make money at the end of the day in the process. It also ensures that my area is not wasted that way. So it's not a waste. It's being used in in useful ways in the society.

00:10:11:01 - 00:10:13:00
Erica Machulak
Simangele what have you got.

00:10:13:02 - 00:10:46:11
Simangele Mabena
I have a question for you Krishnan. So you have been telling us the differences between, you know, the definitions of e-waste versus materials. My question is then why should I care about e-waste? I am from education, so I know very little about e-waste and materials. And this whole, system. Okay. I'd love to hear more about why should I care about it?

00:10:46:11 - 00:10:50:14
Simangele Mabena
It's a very tricky question, but I'm curious to hear more.

00:10:50:16 - 00:11:31:05
T S Krishnan
Okay. So I'll again, I'll again rely on my my fieldwork to see if I can find an answer for this or a response to this. So okay, so here's the thing, right? So, Simangele is working in the education sector and and why should Simangele care about e-waste. So, so in my field work. Right. So in my field work, when I was talking and interviewing a recycler, what the recycler, told me by sitting in that in that small shop was, many of the laptops or the desktops with the recycler gets, some of them are in working condition.

00:11:31:07 - 00:11:51:17
T S Krishnan
Like, even if they are, you know, old versions and so on. This recycler can do the necessary upgrades to, to enable them to work. Again, it may not be the latest models that we have, but it it it serves the purpose. You know, you can still open your word document or whatever and then do do your PDFs etc., etc..

00:11:51:19 - 00:12:22:03
T S Krishnan
So so these so so and, and and a major customer base for the, for this recycler are these schools, schools from very remote areas who do not have the funding to buy, the latest model laptops or desktops for their, for, for, for the, for for the, the school children, and, and for these kind of schools, it's like if there is one desktop, ten students or 20 students can use them during the school hours so that they can get the computer education.

00:12:22:05 - 00:12:47:01
T S Krishnan
And the schools can generally. So they do not, have the money to afford the, the most latest, highly priced models. So for them, these recyclers are very useful for them. So these recyclers kind of, you know, get this material from people like me, they will do some minor upgrades and sell these laptops at a very affordable rate to these schools and the, the remotest parts of the country.

00:12:47:03 - 00:13:16:06
T S Krishnan
So, so from an education perspective, it's great because, you know, you're able to educate your school children, your school kids by using lesser resources. You're not buying new products, you're reusing the old ones. And and in some way you're also contributing to sustainability. That way. Right. So so somewhere these are linked. Again I know that, you know, this is not a, 100% perfect answer, but, so this is one way in which you can look at it.

00:13:16:08 - 00:13:38:17
Erica Machulak
So what I've understood from you, working with you on the book, Krishnan, is that recycling can mean so many different things, whether it's, you know, taking a laptop apart and breaking down all the different raw materials to go to different functions, or as you're talking about here, refurbishing electronics to make them more accessible. For example, I think you've said in the past, is this right?

00:13:38:19 - 00:13:47:04
Erica Machulak
That the informal processors in India are responsible for all of the computers that, the second hand computers that end up in schools. Is that correct?

00:13:47:09 - 00:13:47:20
T S Krishnan
Yes.

00:13:47:22 - 00:13:52:21
Erica Machulak
And and people in the population having phones who otherwise might not be able to, to afford them.

00:13:52:23 - 00:14:04:15
T S Krishnan
Yes. That's right. That's. Yeah. It includes mobile phones. That includes your laptops, desktops even even the ones like refrigerators and ovens and so on.

00:14:04:17 - 00:14:05:02
Erica Machulak
Great. And so

00:14:05:02 - 00:14:14:18
T S Krishnan
That way it actually reaches those parts of the society which are not able to afford these quite expensive electronic products.

00:14:14:20 - 00:14:30:04
Erica Machulak
And so your book offers a policy roadmap related to e-waste. So I want to talk more about why a roadmap is needed. Can you tell us what policies exist right now in India and elsewhere?

00:14:30:06 - 00:15:04:01
T S Krishnan
So, okay, now, if you if you look at the policy in India, so started from roughly in the late 2000, so 2000, ten was when the, when the first policy came up. But so, so this, this policy is about, okay. Now I need to speak at multiple levels here. So Europe, European Union was that is where the very first policy for e-waste formally came.

00:15:04:03 - 00:15:10:06
T S Krishnan
And this was based on this concept called the extended producer responsibility.

00:15:10:08 - 00:15:10:24
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:15:11:01 - 00:15:32:14
T S Krishnan
Basically what that policy says is if you are a producer, if you are the manufacturer of this electronic product, you are responsible to collect it from the consumers like you and me and get it recycled is your responsibility. And this came up in the early 1990s and and this was one of the this was the world's first policy for e-waste.

00:15:32:16 - 00:15:34:04
T S Krishnan
And once this came.

00:15:34:06 - 00:15:48:12
Erica Machulak
Wait can I, can I just ask you just to have a picture of it? So in the 90s, what kind of e-waste are we talking about here? Like, what were the electronics that prompted these policies in the first place? So fax machines?

00:15:48:14 - 00:16:19:15
T S Krishnan
Probably, yes. And these were called as waste in electrical and electronic products. W triple e in that is that is what this was called. So waste in electrical electronic equipments. WEEE. Okay. Now it is called as e-waste. That but WEEE was the initial name. So probably all these, you know scanning sorry not scanning the, the fax machines and maybe even the initial, desktop kind of computers.

00:16:19:17 - 00:16:25:21
T S Krishnan
And by 1990s, I mean, towards the late 1990s, not, not the only ones.

00:16:25:23 - 00:16:41:14
Erica Machulak
I asked just to have a picture because as we're talking about how policy evolves over time. You know, I'm sitting here holding my iPhone. You know, it's interesting to think about how the policies are having to adapt along with all of these new technologies over time.

00:16:41:16 - 00:16:42:09
T S Krishnan
Okay.

00:16:42:11 - 00:16:47:05
Erica Machulak
Yeah just curious. Okay. So so we're back in the 90s.

00:16:47:07 - 00:17:13:03
T S Krishnan
Oh, no. No, but but, okay. But but here's the thing. Right. So, it's a good question. So so so, so this concept of, you know, giving that responsibility to producers that may not come from e-waste. So, so this idea, this idea came from very different products, like plastic products. Which was there for, for, for centuries, like or for years much before e-waste came in.

00:17:13:05 - 00:17:14:03
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:17:14:05 - 00:17:30:18
T S Krishnan
So, so, so this thinking about, this policy, you know, this policy called as the extended producer responsibility, this thinking came much before the consumer electronics started hitting the market in a in a big way. But before that.

00:17:30:20 - 00:17:43:18
T S Krishnan
Then consumer electronics started hitting the market towards the end of 1990s. And during that period of time, then the thinking was that, hey, we have got an existing policy thinking like this. Why don't we apply that to e-waste?

00:17:43:20 - 00:17:58:09
Erica Machulak
Okay. So the extended producer responsibility originated with companies like white Coca-Cola making Coke bottles and Coca-Cola theoretically being responsible for ensuring that those bottles are properly recycled. So what, you mean.

00:17:58:11 - 00:18:04:10
T S Krishnan
Yes. Probably yes. Because I'm not very I'm not very sure about the company names.

00:18:04:12 - 00:18:04:14
Erica Machulak
Sure sure.

00:18:04:17 - 00:18:06:11
T S Krishnan
You thinking has been in that direction.

00:18:06:13 - 00:18:06:20
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:18:06:20 - 00:18:27:01
T S Krishnan
So it was not that, you know, the the policy makers in EU woke up and said, you know, for this we need to create this. No, that was not the idea. Okay. We had this existing policy framework doing the rounds for for a long time. And when e-waste started becoming an issue, then naturally, you know, this was thought of as an appropriate approach to manage it.

00:18:27:06 - 00:18:49:20
T S Krishnan
And if you also look at EU generally. Right. So all these European countries, they are quite well known to create these, you know, preventive policy measures in a, in a, in a very nascent stage of so, so, so, so they typically don't wait for the problem to explode. They try to come up with very preventive mechanisms so that, you know, the problem doesn't explode.

00:18:49:22 - 00:19:09:00
T S Krishnan
And this were in many contexts not necessarily what is. So so that is why even though the, the, the if you look at the the quantity of e-waste specifically would have been lower in the late 1990s. But I think as, as a, as a continent, they felt they were responsible to come up with some kind of a policy.

00:19:09:02 - 00:19:09:12
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:19:09:13 - 00:19:29:10
T S Krishnan
And when, when countries like India started thinking about this, that was the only template available for them. So countries like India, US and many other countries, when they started realizing that, okay, e-waste is a problem for them to then what they relied on was, okay, EU has this policy. Let us bring that policy here. That is the best policy available.

00:19:29:12 - 00:19:31:14
Erica Machulak
Okay. And what happened.

00:19:31:16 - 00:20:08:11
T S Krishnan
And similarly so the Indian government also thought okay, that's the that's the policy out there. Let's bring that over here and let's then implement that here. But but but the challenge here is so, so India or India or countries like India are a bit different from some of these, you know, advanced and developed EU, the countries in EU, because here we have this, so I got I and the other scholars called them as the informal sector or the informal recyclers or the informal economy, anything related to informal.

00:20:08:13 - 00:20:25:22
T S Krishnan
So the idea here is here, there have so, so there are these communities like, you know, 1%, 2% businesses that has been recycling any kind of waste. Forget e-waste, you know, any kind of scrap material. They have been recycling for generations for a long period of time.

00:20:25:24 - 00:20:28:19
Erica Machulak
What does that mean for generations?

00:20:28:21 - 00:20:45:04
T S Krishnan
So, so for generations means, you know, my, my, dad and my dad's dad would have been doing it, and, and then I would have carried on. That practice is when, when I entered into my adulthood, I would have taken their business forward.

00:20:45:06 - 00:20:58:17
Erica Machulak
But, I mean, if I'm, you know, if I'm in the late 90s recycling, I don't know, a mac desktop, my grandfather wouldn't have been recycling my desktop. So what does it mean that for generations, we've been doing it?

00:20:58:23 - 00:21:04:09
T S Krishnan
Yeah. So here's the thing. So, so so my grandfather would have been recycling, steel scrap.

00:21:04:11 - 00:21:06:07
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:21:06:09 - 00:21:13:18
T S Krishnan
Like, how do I say this now? So in 1960s or 70s, there would be these steel utensils.

00:21:13:20 - 00:21:14:05
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:21:14:06 - 00:21:29:14
T S Krishnan
Stainless steel utensils. I'm not sure how it is in, in US or in Canada, but in India, I have seen that. So at home we use stainless steel. The the utensils for drinking tea, coffee or for preparing food, etc..

00:21:29:16 - 00:21:55:02
T S Krishnan
And this has been there for a long period of time, very, very long period of time. So, so their grandfathers or their ancestors would be involved in taking bowls, you know, used utensils which I discard and then converting them into, into a form that they can sell to steelmakers. So steelmakers can then use it for making new steel.

00:21:55:04 - 00:22:06:16
T S Krishnan
And these recyclers are the ones who collect all these old steel, used steel from places like from from my home. And they would be, you know, converting that into that steel blocks, metal blocks.

00:22:06:18 - 00:22:13:03
T S Krishnan
And then selling that to the steel, steelmakers. I'm just giving one small example here.

00:22:13:05 - 00:22:31:07
Erica Machulak
And so, but I walk this back a little bit and explain to us, Krishna. And so how do you get if your grandfather is processing steel and you're processing in the late 90s, a fax machine, what is the part that is intergenerational? What is it that carries over?

00:22:31:09 - 00:23:08:20
T S Krishnan
So, what what carries over is, the ability to look at any kind of material. And assess. Okay. What what technique should I use to make the best use of this. So it could be steel. It could. So in my research what I also found was many of the the informal sector, the, the informal recyclers in Bangalore, their ancestors were involved in, taking out gold from the leftover, sand of mining from the Kolar Gold Fields.

00:23:08:22 - 00:23:09:06
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:23:09:06 - 00:23:32:18
T S Krishnan
So, so there so so so so this is what they explained to me so well. So what they said is so their forefathers had this knowledge of, how do I, take out the, the, the gold from the leftover mill tailings or from the leftover sand? So, so after after the gold is mined, the leftover sand will have still will still have small minute.

00:23:32:20 - 00:23:46:24
T S Krishnan
Amount of gold. So how do I recover gold from the sand? So they would be using, you know, putting that into some acid and then, retaining it for a longer time. And then taking out small traces of gold. So it's that.

00:23:47:01 - 00:23:52:11
Erica Machulak
And this is presumably gold that the, the mining companies have left behind. It's just the dregs that weren't worth their time.

00:23:52:13 - 00:23:58:15
T S Krishnan
Yes. Because it's not economical for them to, you know, spend a lot of time to, take out these traces of gold.

00:23:58:17 - 00:24:00:07
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:24:00:09 - 00:24:19:02
T S Krishnan
And it's not possible using their machinery, too. So, so this is something that is. Let's go, let's go. So this commodity will do it in small ways in your homes. You know, you can you can pick up a few, a few kilogram of these, sand. And then you can come to your home and then put that in an asset and then wait for some time and so on.

00:24:19:04 - 00:24:19:21
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:24:19:23 - 00:24:41:04
T S Krishnan
So it is this, this knowledge that, that has carry forward it when their ancestors moved from the Kolar Gold Fields to other parts of the country or other parts of the state, and when they move to other parts of the state, it was about to figure out, okay, now I get, what is gold?

00:24:41:06 - 00:25:03:04
T S Krishnan
Gold coated watches and the gold coated, ball pans. So how do I think I'm going to turn them now? So it's no more sand. It's about the watches and the pens. Okay, after some time that came and that transitioned to printed circuit boards. So it's still the same thing. Okay, now, how do I how do I take out metals from these circuit boards?

00:25:03:06 - 00:25:25:08
T S Krishnan
So so it's that knowledge of, you know, how do I take out metals or materials from very complex items like sand or pen or watches or circuit boards using trial and error, using some ingenuity, you have to try out various things. So what works in sand will not work for circuit boards, but still you will have that thinking, okay, maybe this will work.

00:25:25:08 - 00:25:44:15
T S Krishnan
Maybe this will work. So I think that is what help them to carry forward through their generations and they will never reveal what the technique was. So if you ask them, you tell me, how do you do it? They will not reveal that. Why? Why should they reveal that to you? They are part of their small closed community where they share these secrets among themselves.

00:25:44:17 - 00:26:35:19
Simangele Mabena
I'm. I'm finding this so interesting because now I'm thinking, with all this intergenerational knowledge that's been passed down from all these generations, how do you make a policy out of it? And I'm thinking how, what you mentioned earlier on is that the I think it's the WEEE policies from the EU up on e-waste. And I'm curious how the knowledge that, you know, of, of the policies and the materials, you know, the intergenerational knowledge of e-waste in India, how how does that come together, like your book is, providing a roadmap for policies.

00:26:35:19 - 00:26:58:21
Simangele Mabena
So I'm curious to find out from what you know, in the policies, from what's been written from the EU and what you experienced with your stakeholders in India. I'm curious about how you started thinking about the policy element of that.

00:26:58:23 - 00:27:12:05
Erica Machulak
So maybe one dimension of that question is what happens when India starts implementing these policies that are based on the EU model.

00:27:12:07 - 00:27:42:05
T S Krishnan
Yeah. So, so okay. No. Okay. Let me also explain. I think this part so, so so when I started my my research, when I started my fieldwork, my thinking was this, you know, India has adopted the EU policy. How do I make the stakeholders comply with this policy and what can be done so that all of them, all of the, you know, informal, formal, whatever, so that all the stakeholders comply with the the prevailing policy.

00:27:42:07 - 00:27:51:16
T S Krishnan
That's how I started my research. So, so so I was thinking, okay, there is this best policy out there. You know, we should try to comply with that.

00:27:51:18 - 00:28:10:09
T S Krishnan
But in the process what, what I, what I could understand was that again not so there are multiple levels to this, but this, this discussion about policy and this intergenerational knowledge and so on. So, so let me try to, break it down in a way that I have understood.

00:28:10:11 - 00:28:11:12
Simangele Mabena
Okay.

00:28:11:14 - 00:28:36:24
T S Krishnan
So okay, so here was the thing, right? So I was so as a, as a scholar, I was reading the academic literature first, all the academic literature about all this policy and how this policy is, it solves certain problems and, you know, and how stakeholders need to comply with this policy and so on. So with this knowledge of what I read in the literature, I started getting into the field and talking to people.

00:28:36:24 - 00:29:00:03
T S Krishnan
So I so I thought, okay, let me at least have a few conversations with them without any specific, research questionnaire or anything like that. So on one hand, so, so, so this was during the summer break of my first year PhD. So during the summer break, on one hand I was reading the literature and on the other hand I was also talking to people in the field, different stakeholders.

00:29:00:03 - 00:29:05:11
T S Krishnan
They could be recyclers, they could be government official, they could be NGOs and so on.

00:29:05:13 - 00:29:14:11
T S Krishnan
And what I realized was that there was a very strong disconnect between what I was reading in the journal articles and what I was seeing in the field.

00:29:14:13 - 00:29:15:05
Simangele Mabena
Also.

00:29:15:07 - 00:29:32:20
T S Krishnan
And that is when this thought was coming. Okay. Then it was like, okay, what I'm seeing in this field is, you know, very rich, very rich knowledge out there about how to, know how to make best use of this e-waste. So the problem was not that the EBS was not getting recycled.

00:29:32:22 - 00:29:53:11
T S Krishnan
So, so, so and on the literally on the other hand, but while reading the literature or the academic scholarship on this in my discipline, it was, it was about, e-waste is not getting recycled. So we should have this policy so that was recycled. And I go to the field. When I go to the field, I find that, okay, if it is getting recycled.

00:29:53:13 - 00:30:11:22
T S Krishnan
The only problem seems to be that so-called, you know, health and environmental aspects of it. Okay, maybe the the person who uses the intergenerational knowledge when he does the, you know, the the processing or the recycling of it, he's doing it in a way that is impacting his health and the environment in a bad way.

00:30:11:24 - 00:30:26:14
Erica Machulak
But just to backtrack to one part of that question that you answered, Krishnan, why weren't the numbers adding up? Like, why? How did you find out that all of this e-waste was in fact being recycled? And why wasn't that documented?

00:30:26:16 - 00:30:51:19
T S Krishnan
So in in, in the, in the literature, the, the the discussion was about how do we ensure that the waste is recycled, using the policy and in the field it was about e-waste is getting recycled already. It's being made the best use of and why was this not being discussed in the scholarship or in the literature that I was reading?

00:30:51:21 - 00:31:26:01
T S Krishnan
I don't have an exact answer for it. Maybe that was a great research. The so called research garbage. I could I could notice, but not but but but here is my my thinking on this. Right. So, most of the literature that I read is focused on the developed countries, the developed countries like the EU or the different states in the US and so on, where we don't have a, an existing working system, that makes use of this e-waste or that recycles e-waste in a way useful to the society.

00:31:26:03 - 00:31:44:24
T S Krishnan
Maybe there are small groups of recyclers here and there, but but but it's not it's not of a massive scale that you find in countries like India. So, so when while doing my field work what the. So the realization was that more than 80% of the element is getting recycled. But if you look at the developed countries that.

00:31:45:01 - 00:32:02:05
T S Krishnan
Yeah more than 80% any kind of reports you some reports are like 1995, some reports are 80. But the only problem is it is done by the informal sector, the so-called, you know, intergenerational knowledge that kind of people, which we call as communities, informal sector and so on.

00:32:02:07 - 00:32:16:16
T S Krishnan
So in India that in India, the challenge was that, you know, the the challenge from it, from, from the policy narrative was that it's being done by the informal sector. You know, we should make them be part of the formal.

00:32:16:18 - 00:32:28:02
Erica Machulak
And just to interject here and clarify one point that you make in your book, Krishna, on that term, informal wasn't actually used until these European based policies came in. Is that correct?

00:32:28:04 - 00:32:29:22
T S Krishnan
Oh, yes. Yes.

00:32:29:22 - 00:32:30:07
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:32:30:07 - 00:32:49:23
T S Krishnan
That is right. That's right. So again, so from a scholarly perspective, informal was has been used. So in, in, in, in the literature, the informal sector has been there for a long time, right from 1950s, 60s onwards. Scholars have been discussing about informal economy.

00:32:50:00 - 00:33:16:00
T S Krishnan
But in, in the context of e-waste, in the context of e-waste, the recyclers did not know that they were informal. So, so only in the in the mid 2000 or so, when the NGOs started coming in, the development agency started coming in and then spreading awareness about waste and serving, you know, these communities and telling them that, look, what you are doing is impacting your health and the environment.

00:33:16:02 - 00:33:18:16
T S Krishnan
You are not doing it the right way.

00:33:18:18 - 00:33:22:09
T S Krishnan
That is when they said, look, you are informal.

00:33:22:11 - 00:33:45:01
T S Krishnan
You are informal. You should become formal. You know, you should do it in a way that is more you know, better for your health, better for your environment, by setting up in a large companies and so on. So yeah. Before I get there. So, so the recyclers, the so-called informal, the so-called informal, the community is the intergenerational persons who are doing the recycling.

00:33:45:03 - 00:33:57:01
T S Krishnan
They never knew that they were informal for them. They were doing their scrap recycling business, just like how my father did. My grandfather did. That's it. I'm just continuing their tradition. And so they.

00:33:57:03 - 00:34:21:19
Erica Machulak
Oh, sorry to interrupt. So for them, it's a it's this well established intergenerational approach that has its own business practices, its have its own technologies and trade secrets that has been operating well, recycling massive quantities of e-waste over 80% for generations. And then you know, a couple decades ago, you had folks coming in and saying, oh, you're actually you're informal now.

00:34:21:19 - 00:34:23:05
Erica Machulak
Didn't you know?

00:34:23:07 - 00:34:41:10
T S Krishnan
Yes. Yeah, that's right. That's okay. And this is what this is what many, many of them in the field work. They have told this to me. They said, you know, one fine morning people came and told what you're doing is illegal. They said, how? And that person said, you know, I have never done anything illegal in my life.

00:34:41:10 - 00:34:42:05
T S Krishnan
I've been just doing my.

00:34:42:05 - 00:34:43:06
Simangele Mabena
Business and I've.

00:34:43:06 - 00:35:07:02
T S Krishnan
Been and and all of them have got their own, their own small scrap shops. So and they are known as, you know, so, for example, I could be setting up a shop that says Krishnan scrap metal merchant. And I will have a specific, tax ID given by the government. It's not that, you know, I'm outside, you know any outside the control or the, or the outside, the view of the government.

00:35:07:02 - 00:35:23:06
T S Krishnan
Nothing like that. I have a scrap shop in this neighborhood, and I'm given that, you know, that number. It's called as a tax number. So, and if I, if I need to go and buy scrap from anywhere from, from the steel plants or from somewhere, including e-waste, I can give that tax number and I can buy my.

00:35:23:11 - 00:35:38:11
T S Krishnan
So that's one. So that's how I've been doing it for years. And suddenly somebody comes and tells, you know, what I'm doing is bad. It's really bad. It is illegal. Now, you should not do it that way. There's always a better way to do it. I'm like, what I was doing was really bad. Was it that bad?

00:35:38:13 - 00:35:41:05
T S Krishnan
So.

00:35:41:07 - 00:35:52:13
Erica Machulak
Okay. So there's this challenging and undervaluing of these practices that already existed. But you mentioned there are some health and sustainability concerns. And in the so-called informal sector. So tell us about those.

00:35:52:15 - 00:36:14:23
T S Krishnan
Yeah. So, so there are I think so there are two major things. Right. So one is so if, if I'm the informal or the or the or the community based recycler. So when I, so when I do so when I, you know, pick out the different parts of the so called e-waste that this material or where and take out the metals by using certain chemicals and so on.

00:36:15:00 - 00:36:34:20
T S Krishnan
I kind of inhale those toxic fumes because I don't I don't wear a mask, or I don't wear gloves while dismantling. So know what will happen is, you know, my fingers might get infected, my fingers might be burned, I might be inhaling those fumes and inhaling. Those films are actually a problem because these are very toxic in nature.

00:36:34:20 - 00:36:52:17
T S Krishnan
You're talking about these complex chemicals in the circuit boards and so on. So the moment I inhale those fumes, you know, I start coughing, I start sneezing, I might have prolonged illness, which is there, which is, so so I'm not denying that, you know, it's there. And so, so, so that is the health part of it.

00:36:52:19 - 00:37:34:06
T S Krishnan
The second part to this is, so, so I recover metals from the circuit boards using some acid based process. And once I recover that metals, what do I do with the leftover acid? I just, you know, throw it in the nearby ground. Or in the nearby drainage? I just, I just discard it there. And when that happens, what happens is so that acid will have some, toxic elements of e-waste remaining in them and that will seep into the groundwater, and then that can affect someone else, a neighboring family or so, who's not even involved in e-waste at all.

00:37:34:08 - 00:37:58:09
T S Krishnan
So it can affect the general public. And that is what we call as the so-called, you know, you know, it affects other people. It affects the environment, too. So one is the health aspect of, the person who's doing it. The second one is the environmental aspect. It affects the other people, too. So these are the two things involved in the so-called informal ways of recycling e-waste.

00:37:58:11 - 00:38:11:23
T S Krishnan
And that is why that is why this thinking was there or so you know, because of this bad health and environmental aspect, there needs to be a better process in place so that this does not happen.

00:38:12:00 - 00:38:19:21
Erica Machulak
And what's that process. Is it feasible to address some of these health and environmental concerns in the informal sector.

00:38:19:23 - 00:38:48:06
T S Krishnan
So but so the process was this, the process was that okay if I'm the informal person. If I set up a a company that is a factory, you know, in factories, the is the name that people in the field use. So instead of having a small 20 by 20 or a 40 by 40 small shop, I need to set up a factory which is like 2000ft² or so.

00:38:48:08 - 00:39:10:19
T S Krishnan
And I need to ensure that there is a proper machinery in place that is a proper dust collection equipment in place, so that when I do the recycling, I don't inhale that fumes. It's it's it's done automatically by the machinery. All the fumes are taken out and it is processed in a good way so that, others living nearby are not affected out of it.

00:39:10:19 - 00:39:17:13
T S Krishnan
So all the toxic fumes will be neutralized by the machinery, and only the clean air will be emitted.

00:39:17:15 - 00:39:21:11
T S Krishnan
And that is what we call as the so-called informal recycler.

00:39:21:13 - 00:39:22:14
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:39:22:16 - 00:39:41:14
T S Krishnan
A formal recycler means somebody with a, a larger factory with the so-called machinery and things in place to ensure that there is no bad health and environmental impact. And typically you, you are able to, build that factory and get the license to operate by approval from the government.

00:39:41:16 - 00:39:42:00
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:39:42:06 - 00:40:03:14
T S Krishnan
Only they can give you the approval. Okay. So so that was the prevailing idea that, you know. Okay. What what the informal is doing is illegal. You better become a foreman. That is, have a factory get the approval or get the license to operate from the government so that your health and the environment is taken care of. Now, that problem is not there.

00:40:03:16 - 00:40:11:14
Erica Machulak
So these informal processors, they can make their processes safer, but they have to go through the government in order to do it. So right.

00:40:11:16 - 00:40:13:22
T S Krishnan
Yes. They have to go through the government. Yes.

00:40:14:03 - 00:40:14:21
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:40:14:23 - 00:40:27:07
T S Krishnan
Because because if if they want can then. So okay. This is a very interesting question. Can they make the process safer while being in the informal itself.

00:40:27:09 - 00:40:33:11
T S Krishnan
What I am saying is yes. And that is what is said even in the policy roadmap in the final chapter of the book.

00:40:33:12 - 00:40:34:17
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:40:34:19 - 00:40:59:10
T S Krishnan
Where we are or where we are thinking of, you know, the solutions where you can preserve the strength of the informal, but by simultaneously, eliminating the negative health and environmental impacts. But nobody thought about it. The, the the the thinking was that, okay, you know, they need to set up a factory in place. Only then this problem will get solved.

00:40:59:16 - 00:41:25:19
T S Krishnan
You can't solve this problem by enabling them to operate. And there are multiple layers to to to think about. There is no good that you ask this question. So. So I will stop or I'll take a pause after after I tell this point to okay, so so when I was talking to some of the, government officials right about this policy, one of them was very vocal and very helpful in terms of thinking aloud.

00:41:25:19 - 00:41:34:11
T S Krishnan
So what what he said was, you know, he he actually told me this. He said, Krishnan, you know, man is a selfish animal.

00:41:34:13 - 00:41:59:23
T S Krishnan
And and who is this man? This man is the formal sector recyclers. So there are a for profit formal recyclers who had come up at that point of time, people with money to invest in large factories and all that. And for these pure, you know, these pure formal recyclers who had invested money to set up their business without any, any intergenerational thing that way.

00:42:00:00 - 00:42:20:05
T S Krishnan
So, so for them, the informal sector was a big blocker to their business. They were not able to get e-waste because whenever they want to procure e-waste for no, recycling it and then selling it in the markets informal sector was the one biggest competitor for them. They were never able to tackle them and they can never compete with them head on.

00:42:20:07 - 00:42:28:06
Erica Machulak
So why is that? Why was the informal sector so competitive? What what edge did they have on the formal sector.

00:42:28:08 - 00:42:34:02
T S Krishnan
So so that are okay. So the one major edge is this okay.

00:42:34:04 - 00:42:41:23
T S Krishnan
Like okay. Let me explain this context. So, so if so if, if Erica has got a company.

00:42:42:00 - 00:42:42:04
Erica Machulak
Uh-huh.

00:42:42:04 - 00:43:00:05
T S Krishnan
Wants to dispose thousands of laptops, ten thousands of computers and so on, and Krishnan is the informal sector person. I will come to Erica and I will tell Erica that. Hey, Erica, I can pick all your laptops and your desktops. Everything for this price.

00:43:00:07 - 00:43:11:11
T S Krishnan
So Simangele is the is a formal sector person. So Simangele will look at this laptops and Simangele will tell. Oh no I can't give you X I can only give you half of x.

00:43:11:13 - 00:43:13:20
T S Krishnan
But Krishnan the informal I can give you x.

00:43:13:20 - 00:43:21:00
T S Krishnan
And the reason is because I know how to process it. I know how I know how to recycle it.

00:43:21:02 - 00:43:21:20
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:43:21:20 - 00:43:42:14
T S Krishnan
I have my connections in the downstream markets that can buy these, you know, desktops and laptops from me at a much higher rate. I have connections in the, in the, in the downstream market. Plus, I know how to make best use of that e-waste. I have that knowledge. Simangele. doesn't have that knowledge. I mean, as a as a formal sector person.

00:43:42:14 - 00:44:02:24
T S Krishnan
Okay. So so the formal sector person like Simangele would be thinking, okay, how do I how do I take this? You know, I can I can only pay so much for this, because, you know, I don't know what to do with that e-waste. I don't have connections in my downstream market, so maybe I can do only, I can I can only maybe recover metal from it.

00:44:03:01 - 00:44:22:07
T S Krishnan
But what I'm thinking is, no, no, I will not recover metals from this e-waste. I have this contact in the second hand market, and I know that you know, this brand and this, configuration of these products has got a higher demand in the market. And I know that I can make it work. I can repair it.

00:44:22:09 - 00:44:28:06
T S Krishnan
I have I have seen it in a recast warehouse. I, I've seen these products. I know I can make it work.

00:44:28:08 - 00:44:28:23
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:44:29:00 - 00:44:37:10
T S Krishnan
Because I have, I have I have that experience with me so I can, you know, I can pay a higher price for this so that smuggler doesn't get it.

00:44:37:12 - 00:45:02:23
Erica Machulak
Okay, so to paraphrase and make sure I get this right, you correct me. So Simangele is a formal processer, or I'm the informal. You bring us a huge load of material that you want to dispose of. You have this corporate responsibility to get rid of all this stuff. It's on you, and it's in your best interest to make sure that somebody can do it as cheaply as possible and take all of it so that you don't have to deal with it anymore.

00:45:03:00 - 00:45:16:23
Erica Machulak
And I, as the informal look at it and say, oh yeah, I can take the whole thing cost this much, or I'll buy it from you for this much. And then I know what to do with it. I, you know, I know how to break down these pieces myself. And what I don't know how to break down myself.

00:45:16:23 - 00:45:37:01
Erica Machulak
I have the connections. I know the lay of the land. I can take care of all of it. No worries. And Simangele as the formal comes in and says, well, my factory works on this particular kind of thing so I can take this half that has these particular pieces. And then you got to figure out what to do with the rest.

00:45:37:03 - 00:46:00:04
T S Krishnan
Yes. Partly yes. So I'm just adding one more point here. So Simangele is the formal and Simangele would be looking at it and saying that, maybe I can, I can, I can take everything, but, you know, my, my, because I run a factory, my costs are also very high, so I can be used for much, even if I know I may not be able to pay you so much.

00:46:00:04 - 00:46:06:22
T S Krishnan
I can only pay you the half of it. But for you, Erica the informal you, you don't have that high factory overheads.

00:46:06:24 - 00:46:07:06
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:46:07:06 - 00:46:14:09
T S Krishnan
This is less costly for you. So it is so there is that element to when it comes to this price.

00:46:14:11 - 00:46:20:23
Erica Machulak
Okay. And is a factory actually required to address those health and environmental concerns.

00:46:21:00 - 00:46:29:24
T S Krishnan
So again so as per the prevailing policy, yes, a factory is required. Only then you can control for the health and environmental concerns.

00:46:30:03 - 00:46:30:15
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:46:30:15 - 00:46:51:00
T S Krishnan
As per the prevailing policy. So before this policy was there so so so so if you, if you could, if you could rewind to the year called 2007, 2008, there was no policy then. So at that time if Simangele and Erica will come to me, I would give only to Erica because, you know, Erica is paying the highest price.

00:46:51:02 - 00:47:03:22
T S Krishnan
I don't care about any health or environmental because there is no law that I need to follow as a person discarding e-waste so I can give 10,000 of my e-waste to Erica because that you can gives me the best price.

00:47:03:24 - 00:47:07:24
T S Krishnan
And Simangele you will get nothing. So what.

00:47:08:01 - 00:47:08:13
Erica Machulak
Sorry Simangele.

00:47:08:13 - 00:47:27:07
T S Krishnan
So so so then Simangele needs some kind of a cover. So that cover or some kind of a, some kind of a system so that, you know, she can come to me, and I am, I am, I have to give it to Simangele. Only. I cannot give to the law. No, there is a law that says I cannot give it to Erica.

00:47:27:07 - 00:47:28:21
T S Krishnan
I have to give only this money. Like.

00:47:28:23 - 00:47:32:23
Erica Machulak
Okay, you can't actually do business with the informal yes anymore.

00:47:33:00 - 00:47:37:03
T S Krishnan
And that's what that law was telling the law that came in 2010.

00:47:37:05 - 00:47:41:23
T S Krishnan
And that is why the government official told me, you know Krishnan man is a selfish animal.

00:47:42:00 - 00:47:42:16
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:47:42:18 - 00:47:46:14
T S Krishnan
Let's speak about health. He didn't speak or environment. Nothing.

00:47:46:16 - 00:48:05:13
T S Krishnan
And he actually said this, he said that. Look the big formal sector players, like Simangele, they need e-waste. And the only way for them to get e-waste is to bring a law like this or to influence x, y z somebody so that a law or a policy is in place so that I am people like Krshinan is forced to give only to Simangele.

00:48:05:13 - 00:48:08:14
T S Krishnan
I cannot do business with Erica anymore.

00:48:08:16 - 00:48:11:00
T S Krishnan
So this is another side of this policy.

00:48:11:02 - 00:48:37:14
Erica Machulak
Okay. So there's, there's kind of a strategic diplomatic paperless advantage to the informal processors pushing to the formal processors pushing for the informal not to be allowed to take it. But you also mentioned that there are these health and sustainability concerns. So one might say well that's a good thing because only the formal processors can actually comply with best practices in health and safety and, and environmental impacts.

00:48:37:16 - 00:48:40:21
Erica Machulak
Is that actually the case?

00:48:40:23 - 00:48:47:09
T S Krishnan
Yeah. So, yeah. So, that is where we will get into a lot more detail. So that is not the case.

00:48:47:11 - 00:48:47:19
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:48:47:20 - 00:49:08:21
T S Krishnan
So it is not that, Simangele being the formal sector person is, doing the key waste recycling in the best ways. It's it's not that case. So what will so what what generally happens in, in the, in the street is a Simangele will take the e-waste from me. Once the policy is in place, I can do business only with Simangele.

00:49:08:23 - 00:49:16:00
T S Krishnan
So Simangele will take the event from me. And, would invariably give a part of the e-waste to Erica.

00:49:16:02 - 00:49:36:03
T S Krishnan
Because, because in many cases, Simangele either does not have the capacity in the factory to recycle that e-waste or Simangele does not know how to do it. So that gives to Erica that is a drug will go from Simangele factory to Erica's scrap shop.

00:49:36:05 - 00:49:54:18
T S Krishnan
I actually I, I've actually seen this truck coming. So while I was in a person’s scrap shop and informal sector person’- scrap shop. So that is why I could clearly visualize that. Or Simangele will call Erica to her factory and we will request Erica that. Hey Erica, I can you come to my factory? I have this very interesting e-waste.

00:49:54:18 - 00:50:01:10
T S Krishnan
I don't know how to do it. I'll give you a small fee if you if you can come and do it for me. That is also there.

00:50:01:12 - 00:50:06:12
Erica Machulak
Okay, so one way or another, they need the informal processor to get it done.

00:50:06:14 - 00:50:25:10
T S Krishnan
Yes. So when Simangele sends the the e-waste to Erica, or when Erica goes to Simangele’s factory to do it on her behalf, there is no health or environmental protocols being followed. So Erica will still do the e-waste thing in the normal usual ways, even in its Simangele’s factory.

00:50:25:12 - 00:50:32:16
T S Krishnan
Or even in your own scrap shop. You don't follow those rules because it doesn't apply to you.

00:50:32:18 - 00:50:35:07
Simangele Mabena
Interesting.

00:50:35:09 - 00:51:08:09
Erica Machulak
So Krishna, as we wind down, I have a question for you. Listeners might be tuning in here and saying okay so right now the informal sector is needed to get all this recycling done. But you still have these concerns for health safety in the environment. So maybe formal is just the way it has to go. Is it is it the case that informal processes are inherently incapable of putting those health and safety and environmental practices in place?

00:51:08:11 - 00:51:27:01
T S Krishnan
No, no, no, they are capable. So if, if they are so right now the informal recyclers can apply for business loans to finance the investment for these, safety practices. They need to have a factory.

00:51:27:03 - 00:51:27:24
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:51:28:01 - 00:52:04:05
T S Krishnan
Without that, they cannot even apply for this kind of, business loans and so on. So, okay, even even even even so if there are, if there are policies that allow the informal to, to apply for such loans or to give them these safety equipments at a subsidized price and so on, there are opportunities where the informal can do it in a way, that is safe for their health and for the environment, and also ensure that your e-waste is recycled, maybe in a much better way to.

00:52:04:07 - 00:52:26:10
Erica Machulak
Okay, so if I'm understanding you right, the challenges you have these informal processors and they've developed these really rigorous ways to break down these materials that are more diversified. But if they were to move to a factory model, which is a requirement for being licensed and being able to get these business loans, they would have to change their practices.

00:52:26:10 - 00:52:42:14
Erica Machulak
They wouldn't be able to actually implement what they're doing. But it's it's the capital to invest in the safety equipment rather than the fundamental processes of the informal processors. That is the barrier. Is that right?

00:52:42:16 - 00:52:56:17
T S Krishnan
Capital is one. So there is also so there is one more angle to it. So, so if I'm the informal guy and if I become a formal person, I, I tend to lose my strengths.

00:52:56:19 - 00:53:14:22
T S Krishnan
Because, because if I'm informal, the way I operate in the informal sector, the way I, you know, collect, e-waste, the way I process it, the way I sell to downstream markets, that is very well, it is naturally aligned with the economics of the industry.

00:53:14:24 - 00:53:29:23
T S Krishnan
The moment I move to formal, that is not naturally aligned. So what is naturally aligned is lost. And then so I cannot even run my business in a, in a, in an economically sustainable way in the formal sector.

00:53:30:00 - 00:53:39:03
T S Krishnan
And then again result. So I have to again resort to my informal practices even if I move to formal. Okay. So which is another challenge.

00:53:39:05 - 00:53:55:14
Erica Machulak
Okay. And one of the environmental pieces that you mentioned earlier there is that you actually need the processes in the so-called informal economy to be able to handle all of the e-waste. Otherwise you would just have these piles of stuff that no one knows how to how to recycle.

00:53:55:16 - 00:54:16:15
T S Krishnan
Yes. No, no, no, not to give an intuitive example here. Right. So so if I'm the informal, I will be having a very small shop, 2020 by 20ft shop or a 40 by 40ft shop. I would be getting erased maybe, you know, once in a week or twice in a week or even maybe 4 to 5 times in a month.

00:54:16:17 - 00:54:33:22
T S Krishnan
And I will have work only when I get that e-waste. Otherwise I'm relatively free. I'm able to afford that. So, so I'm, I can work for five days a month, I can still afford to run my business because my costs are very, very low.

00:54:33:24 - 00:54:54:11
T S Krishnan
But if I'm the formal sector person I cannot afford to run a factory working for, you know, like five days a week. Sorry, five days a month. I cannot afford to do that because I will have full time permanent employees. I need to I need to pay them their salaries and so on. The the challenge with the industry is you don't get your raw material every day.

00:54:54:11 - 00:55:12:23
T S Krishnan
It's not like a manufacturing plant where you order raw material and you just get it. It's not that, companies will dispose of e-waste companies or consumers. They will dispose of e-waste only when they have to dispose of e-waste. So I can't write a contract and say that. Okay, for the next 30 days, give me e-waste every day.

00:55:12:24 - 00:55:18:05
T S Krishnan
So I'm surprised I can never do that. That is not how this industry operates.

00:55:18:07 - 00:55:36:13
T S Krishnan
That so that constant stream of raw material for me. So to me the raw material is the e-waste. I can never get that. And unless I get a constant stream of raw material, I can't remember exactly. But if I'm in the informal, I can continue to do my small business by working for a few days a month whenever I get my e-waste.

00:55:36:15 - 00:55:40:24
T S Krishnan
And I'm just getting the most simplest intuitive example here.

00:55:41:01 - 00:55:53:14
Erica Machulak
So can you give us an example as we wind down of a possible solution, like how might a different policy address this challenge in a better way.

00:55:53:16 - 00:56:02:17
T S Krishnan
So, so this is not a challenge for the recycler. This is how the industry operates. So so a a policy cannot change the industry.

00:56:02:19 - 00:56:03:03
Simangele Mabena
Okay.

00:56:03:07 - 00:56:06:16
T S Krishnan
A policy will also have to align with the way the industry works.

00:56:06:21 - 00:56:07:12
Simangele Mabena
Okay.

00:56:07:14 - 00:56:20:19
T S Krishnan
So. So if I tell that, you know, if only if you set up a factory, only if you become formal, then you will be able to apply for business loans, capital and so on. It doesn't align with the way the industry works.

00:56:20:21 - 00:56:23:04
Erica Machulak
Okay.

00:56:23:06 - 00:56:44:24
T S Krishnan
Because it is quite hard and, and and again, one one additional aspect here is if I'm a recycler, I cannot say that I will I will recycle or I will get only, x and y types of e-waste. No. So, so if I have a recycler, I might get service today. I might get a lot of service today.

00:56:45:00 - 00:57:03:08
T S Krishnan
I might get a lot of computers tomorrow. I might get a lot of telecom equipment the next day, or maybe whenever I get it. So it's the kind of variety I get is very huge. And and you need really great skill to understand this variety and to make the best use of it.

00:57:03:10 - 00:57:17:02
T S Krishnan
Make the best use mean to to to to to to disassemble, to take out those materials, to identify buyers in the downstream markets, to sell it to them all requires a lot of skill, a lot of connections in the industry.

00:57:17:04 - 00:57:44:02
T S Krishnan
So, so if I get these multiple types of e-waste, I do not have the skilled people to do it. So, a personal skilled in mobile phones will not be skilled in laptops or computers in a formal factory style setup. But if I'm in the informal I have, I have my internet connections nearby. So. So if I get servers and laptops, I will call up my colleague who owns another scrap shop nearby, and I'll tell him, I know today I've got laptops.

00:57:44:02 - 00:58:08:01
T S Krishnan
Do you want to come and take them? Because I'm not an expert in laptops. So that person will come and immediately take it away. But if I, if I'm in the formal sector I can never do all this. And a single policy will not be able to solve these kind of challenges. So that is why in, in the, in the final chapter of the book, I say that, the policy also has to align with the way this industry operates.

00:58:08:03 - 00:58:09:19
T S Krishnan
In general.

00:58:09:21 - 00:58:12:14
Erica Machulak
What does that mean? What does that look like?

00:58:12:16 - 00:58:45:00
T S Krishnan
So that looks like something like this, right. So so instead of, forcing the informal to become formal, what the policy can tell is, yeah, I'm valuing your system as an informal. You have some of the best capabilities available to, to process e-waste in a way that is aligned with the industry. Now, let me also help you to solve the health and environmental aspects instead of, you know, becoming formal, instead of setting up a huge factory and, and x, y, z kind of things.

00:58:45:02 - 00:59:05:23
T S Krishnan
So it could be like, you know, the, the policy could tell that, wherever you do your informal sector work, let me come and keep a few, portable, smelters for you, small portable smelter so that you just put your stuff inside that and you'll get metals out. No toxic fumes emitted. He doesn't have to inhale that.

00:59:05:23 - 00:59:16:20
T S Krishnan
The portable smelter will be able to take care of it. It might be expensive, but I'm willing to subsidize it. You know, I'm willing to come and keep it in your locality.

00:59:16:22 - 00:59:32:05
T S Krishnan
And one more additional aspect here is if you use those portable advanced smelters which are at an R&D stage as we speak about it. But, but, but the possibility use this. The informal can also get a higher amount of materials using those smelters.

00:59:32:07 - 00:59:33:03
Erica Machulak
Oh interesting.

00:59:33:09 - 00:59:58:08
T S Krishnan
In a way that in a way that their health and environment is totally not affected. So that is a great way to to think of, a solution or for a policy. The other way could be a recycling park. So the government could say that let me set up small recycling parks in various parts, in various parts of the city, so that you can come to this park and you can, do whatever recycling you want.

00:59:58:10 - 01:00:18:03
T S Krishnan
But you are in a you are in a premise where the way you do it doesn't affect your health and environment. So I have a dust collection, so you can only, recycle in the place where the dust collection equipment is there. And, and I'm overseeing it as a government. I can see what you are doing when you do your task.

01:00:18:03 - 01:00:23:13
T S Krishnan
You take out whatever you want. When you go out, you can pay a small fee. That's it.

01:00:23:15 - 01:00:31:07
T S Krishnan
So this way you are, you're preserving the strength in a way that eliminates the negative health and environmental effects.

01:00:31:09 - 01:00:57:24
Erica Machulak
Okay. So you've laid out these potential policy pathways and as I understand it from your book, these are just examples of, of many possible ways that the solution could be found differently or different policy solutions might be uncovered. What do you think is the best way for policymakers to figure out the best approaches for the context?

01:00:58:01 - 01:01:12:15
T S Krishnan
The best way is to do. Okay. So I think that I think there is no no no mincing words here. It's like they have to speak to the informal sector or recyclers.

01:01:12:17 - 01:01:38:16
T S Krishnan
So whenever the government frames or develops a policy on this topic they invite the manufacturers. That is the producers, they invite the NGOs, they invite the development agencies. They also need to invite the informal recyclers to the decision making table and give them the voice, or help them to articulate what they want to do. Valuing their system.

01:01:38:16 - 01:01:58:00
T S Krishnan
It's not like calling them for a meeting and talking in English and making them understand that what they are doing is not not good at all. That is not the idea. The idea is to call them in and then tell them that, look, we value what you do. Now you tell us what will help you to do this in a way that is useful.

01:01:58:02 - 01:02:16:24
T S Krishnan
So you have a, you have a voice. So as an informal you should have a voice and a seat in the decision making table. Along with the manufacturers, the development agencies and the individuals who do not have the best interest and who do not often know how this industry works. The informal are the best people who know how this industry works.

01:02:17:01 - 01:02:22:15
Erica Machulak
So you got to get, you got to get these perspectives into the conversation is what you're saying in a mean way.

01:02:22:17 - 01:02:45:12
T S Krishnan
And that has been missing. I've seen that happening in most of the conferences that I have attended. Most of the government meetings that I have attended. Either so in some government meetings they the group of representatives from the informal are called and the entire discussion happens in English, which is not a language which they understand.

01:02:45:14 - 01:03:10:12
T S Krishnan
But and even before the meeting begins, the idea is about, you know, how to force them to become formal, how to tell them that what they are doing is back. That's the, that's the mindset with which all of us approach. And in these not large industry conferences, the recycling conferences there again it's, it's, it's dominated by the formal sector people and the policy makers.

01:03:10:14 - 01:03:32:14
T S Krishnan
You won't find even one informal sector person that I've been to, 3 or 4 conferences. Not even one of them will come there. And then the the entire conversation is about how do you keep this informal, how they are bad, and how to make them formal. And so on. At some, at some point, many of the stakeholders do value their skills in a good way.

01:03:32:15 - 01:04:01:00
T S Krishnan
They say that informal is good for collection. But again, it is not enough. It is not enough to say that they are good at collection. They have that deep knowledge of how this industry works. Deep knowledge of how to recycle, recovered materials. That has to really come forth. And so that there is a balanced discussion about this, that is what needs to happen to to bring about the right that the so called ultimate e-waste policy.

01:04:01:02 - 01:04:23:08
Erica Machulak
Okay. And so we've been talking about the policy level, but just to bring us home, what can listeners and people like Simangele and I do on our own level, to help address the growing piles of e-waste that are accumulating in the world.

01:04:23:10 - 01:04:45:22
T S Krishnan
Okay. It's very simple. So if you are in a developed country, the US, Canada, Europe and so on. You can, you can give away your e-waste, to the nearest recycler. The recycler may not come to your home to pick it up, but you can go to that facility either a drop but there must be a drop box or some, some facility must be there.

01:04:45:24 - 01:05:02:23
T S Krishnan
Either you could try to donate it to a nearby school. They might be using it. Or they you might you might look out for some community centers that helps to reuse, repair and ensure that electronics is used in some useful ways.

01:05:03:00 - 01:05:13:21
T S Krishnan
So, so this is one thing that we could do as a consumer. And instead of instead of buying a new product, we could try to repair the existing product. But it doesn't work in most cases.

01:05:13:23 - 01:05:21:07
T S Krishnan
Because sometimes, you know, the new products are more advanced, it will help you to do your tasks in a much better way. But that is also an option.

01:05:21:09 - 01:05:29:11
T S Krishnan
If it is not a, if it is something like a small electronic product that you have, you can try to get it repaired rather than buying a new one.

01:05:29:13 - 01:05:44:00
T S Krishnan
I have tried that. Not for my laptop but for my, for my mosquito. But. So in Bangalore I was using a bat to kill mosquitoes. Mosquitoes are a big problem there. And this is an electrical bag. It runs on electricity.

01:05:44:02 - 01:06:01:19
T S Krishnan
So so when it. So when, when when it stopped functioning. When it was dead I took it to a nearby. You can call that as a scrap dealer or an electronics repair or whatever you want to call it to small scrap shop. I just took it and asked, you know, why is it is there any possibility you could repair this?

01:06:01:21 - 01:06:13:06
T S Krishnan
And they repeated in another ten, 15 minutes. They had it and the circuit board. So they had a pile of circuit boards, used ones to try to see which one fits in better here. And it was repaired.

01:06:13:08 - 01:06:33:07
T S Krishnan
So and, and if you are in an emerging or in a developing country like India, Africa and, and other places, one way you could do is you can find it is very easy for you to find a nearby scrap shop, a nearby scrap dealer, secondhand market. You can go to them and give it to them in return for money.

01:06:33:09 - 01:06:44:02
T S Krishnan
Thanks. It's not a problem at all. You don't have to go to a formal authorized recycler. You can go to the nearby scrap shop too, because it ensures that it is. It is used in useful ways.

01:06:44:04 - 01:07:21:22
Erica Machulak
And I think one of the key pieces there that you, you address toward the end of your book is that these challenges in the informal sector for e-waste in India, are also this is a trend in formal economies, not just for e-waste, but for all kinds of products are emerging, in countries all over the world. And so a lot of the points that you make, you're showing the system in great detail, partially to eliminate the importance of thinking about these multiple perspectives in developing grassroots, homegrown policies that work for local best practices and cultural protocols.

01:07:21:24 - 01:07:45:07
T S Krishnan
Yes. Yes. That's right. So you could. So in India for instance, informal economy is there in many industries apart from e-waste. If you look at plastic recycling, if you look at glass recycling, end of life vehicles recycling, lead acid battery recycling, even primary health care, even primary health care, you can find informal sector doctors.

01:07:45:09 - 01:07:47:12
Erica Machulak
Wow.

01:07:47:14 - 01:08:07:09
T S Krishnan
And there is this, you know, so, so there are and there is some emergent thinking that is happening among scholars to think that, okay, even in the primary healthcare sectors, we should leverage the informal sector rather than, you know, making them illegal because they have inherent strengths in the. And then it's all about, can you reframe the problem?

01:08:07:11 - 01:08:16:16
T S Krishnan
And can you think in a, in a different way so that you, you, you preserve that strength and then you simultaneously get rid of the negative effects.

01:08:16:18 - 01:08:22:16
T S Krishnan
You know people sectors this thinking has slowly started. Not in a great way but in a very very small way.

01:08:22:18 - 01:08:38:13
Erica Machulak
Fascinating. Well thanks Krishnan. And if I can ask you one more question before we sign off, which is, you know, Trudy, our conversation a selfish one. What advice do you have for those of us trying to finish our books?

01:08:38:15 - 01:08:59:23
T S Krishnan
Okay. So let me talk from my experience here. So, so when I, when I finished my PhD, after a lot of challenges and efforts in 2018. My thinking work then was okay. Now, now, now that my thesis is complete, how do I convert it into a form?

01:09:00:00 - 01:09:35:03
T S Krishnan
Into a form. And, you know, an academic outlet could be a journal. It could be a book. Whatever. One key challenge or a blocker which I was facing is I was unable to think, unable to think from outside. What? So. So I've been thinking about this topic only from one point of view. In order, in order to write in a scholarly outlet, or at least to help others understand what you have done, it's important to think of it from a non-specialist point of view and to write it in a non-specialist language.

01:09:35:05 - 01:09:57:13
T S Krishnan
I wasn't able to do that because my thinking was very rigid. I was only able to think in very specialized language in my discipline. So I will what's up? And so what one approach which I follow to, to kind of overcome this problem was that one is to, to write an opinion article.

01:09:57:15 - 01:10:04:06
T S Krishnan
That helped me to, kind of unfreeze my thinking. I don't.

01:10:04:08 - 01:10:26:24
T S Krishnan
Because, because I was thinking in a very rigid way writing for writing an opinion article by my of course partnering with, partnering with you. It helped me to, to, to think of this topic and the subject in the more expansive way and to write it in a way which non-specialist audience can understand.

01:10:27:01 - 01:10:49:04
T S Krishnan
Because to me, that was extremely hard for me to reframe what I have worked on for about eight years or so. It was extremely difficult. And once that initial challenge was kind of taken care of, kind of resolved through that opinion article, then the thinking was, okay, now that I have now, I need to think more expansively in a little bit more non-rigid manner.

01:10:49:06 - 01:10:56:08
T S Krishnan
How can I expand that into, into a, into a scholarly outlet like a monograph?

01:10:56:10 - 01:11:20:19
T S Krishnan
So so one thing that I've realized is, as a scholar, it is extremely hard. It was extremely hard for me to come outside my own thinking that had I had put very strong limits on my thinking unknowingly. So I needed someone where I can brainstorm these ideas, who can help me to look at my own evidence from a slightly different perspective?

01:11:20:22 - 01:11:37:07
T S Krishnan
Who was not very familiar with my research topic, but is really passionate about or interested in what I am doing. Who can look at it from a, a point of view where, who can ask good questions and we can tell that, you know, okay, this I'm not able to understand this. Can you explain this more?

01:11:37:12 - 01:11:59:00
T S Krishnan
Maybe you are talking in a very highly specialized language. Can you help me understand this? So somebody whom I can spend a lot of time with to to to get clarity on my own thinking about this topic and to write it in a way that scholars from other disciplines can also understand what what I'm trying to say.

01:11:59:02 - 01:12:19:13
T S Krishnan
I know that it's not a complete story that I'm trying to convey here, but so the whole idea is to, to, to, to move from, you know, very rigid, thinking with a lot of, with a lot of complexities into a little bit, it a little bit more simplified way of, conveying that story.

01:12:19:15 - 01:12:25:11
T S Krishnan
You need somebody who is not familiar with your topic but also interested in this topic.

01:12:25:13 - 01:12:26:23
T S Krishnan
I hope I could.

01:12:27:00 - 01:12:39:13
Erica Machulak
Yeah. No that's that's great. And, and just on the day to day of getting through the slog of sitting down in front of your computer, do you have one writing tip that worked for you.

01:12:39:15 - 01:12:50:13
T S Krishnan
Okay. So that's the one thing that comes to me at the top of my mind. That regular cadence I had with, smiley.

01:12:50:15 - 01:13:19:02
T S Krishnan
I think that was the one thing that kept me going in that in that final phase of not just getting that manuscript done. Everything is out there, the content is there, the structuring is there, but just need to get that writing done. So I think that and that weekly, connects with Simangele and very importantly, whatever small, things I have done in that week when I received the mail from Simangle with a, with a nice, with a very nice caption on a motivating message.

01:13:19:04 - 01:13:21:02
Erica Machulak
She's the queen of memes.

01:13:21:04 - 01:13:40:11
T S Krishnan
Yeah. That was really great. I felt so good. So even even during weeks when I did not accomplish much, even then, I got that thing to. Okay. It's not that I have not been doing it. It's actually good. So. So that so that, weekly emails was very useful to keep that momentum going and to keep that motivation in track.

01:13:40:13 - 01:13:53:19
T S Krishnan
I think that is something that I really needed. I mean, I did not know I needed that. Looking back, I felt that was the most important thing for me to know just to get that done.

01:13:53:21 - 01:14:16:01
Erica Machulak
Well, as you know, at Hikma, we're all about celebrating your wins big and small. But in this case, we're delighted to be celebrating a huge win for you. So congratulations on your book and I will include it. And the OP ed in the show notes. It's been it's been a real honor to get to work on work on your writing with you, and also recruit with you here.

01:14:16:03 - 01:14:17:19
T S Krishnan
So thank you. Thanks a lot.

01:14:18:00 - 01:14:21:11
Erica Machulak
Oh, yeah. Thanks for joining us.

01:14:21:13 - 01:14:24:05
Simangele Mabena
Thanks again. Krishnan.

01:14:24:07 - 01:14:48:23
Erica Machulak
We hope you have enjoyed this episode of the Hikma Collective podcast. I'm your host, Erica Machulak, author, medievalist and founder of Hikma. This episode was managed and produced by Ai Mizuta, Heidi Rennert and Sophia van Hees. Matthew Tomkinson composed the original music you hear now in his capacity as Hikma’s 2022 Artist in Residence. You can find shownotes links and transcripts on our website hikma.studio/podcast.

01:14:49:00 - 01:15:04:23
Erica Machulak
Hikma is situated on the traditional, ancestral and unceded territory of the hən̓q̓əmin̓əm̓-speaking xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam) people. We are so grateful to be here and to share this space with you. Wherever you're listening, make sure you know whose land you're on.