00:00:06:15 - 00:00:31:08
Erica Machulak
Welcome back to the Hikma Collective podcast. If you've been following us this season, then you know that part of our agenda has been to create more space for joy among humanists and like minded scholars, and we've been doing that by sharing stories from great scholars with whom we've been building relationships over many years. Relationships, for me are by far the most joyful part of the process.
00:00:31:10 - 00:01:01:10
Erica Machulak
This episode is a little different in terms of topic, but that piece of getting to work with cool people and amazing work is the same. In this episode, we'll be talking with me and the co-creators of my book, Hustles for Humanists Build a Business with Purpose, which came out with Rutgers University Press in 2025. So this conversation is moderated by Katina Rogers of the Inkcap collective, is also a member of the Hikma Advisory board.
00:01:01:12 - 00:01:37:00
Erica Machulak
And you'll hear me speaking with Crystal Marie Moten, who wrote the foreword for the book, and Sophia van Hees who did the illustrations for the book and is also responsible for the entire visual brand from the thumbnails that you see for all of our blog posts to our logo itself. In addition to a lot of really cool creative design work with clients, there really is no better example of what a good entrepreneurial community should could look like, can look like it does look like.
00:01:37:02 - 00:02:03:19
Erica Machulak
Then this group of people, as well as all the others I don't have time to name here who have made this book possible. So whether you are a reader or a viewer or someone who sat with me to have a cup of coffee and talk about your own approach to freelancing and entrepreneurship, or a client who gave me some insights about how to make our processes better and how to work with people better.
00:02:03:21 - 00:02:31:19
Erica Machulak
It really does feel like this book has been a collective effort, and the launch too, has been such a cool and invigorating way to think differently about the possibilities and next steps for Hikma in the world. I always said that at the five year mark, we would do a big evaluation of where we had been and where we wanted to go moving forward, and you'll be hearing more, I think, in the next season about what that process has looked like for my team.
00:02:31:21 - 00:03:04:05
Erica Machulak
But for now, I'm just so honored and delighted to get to share this conversation with Katina, Crystal and Sophia. And to tell you a little bit more about what went into writing a book like this. So thank you for listening throughout the season, and I really hope that you enjoy this episode and that we, we see you again at Hikma in other ways.
00:03:04:07 - 00:03:30:07
Katina Rogers
Thank you. Thank you so much Ai, and so good to see everybody. Thank you all for being here. My name is Katina Rogers. I am so glad to be a part of this discussion, with Erica Machulak, the founder of the Hikma collective and of course, the author of hustles for humanists. Along with historian Crystal Marie Moten, who wrote the foreword, and Sophia, she is the founder of Brave Snail Designs, who created the gorgeous illustrations.
00:03:30:09 - 00:03:53:07
Katina Rogers
I have had the privilege of watching Erica's book take shape from an early stage, and I'm so glad to see it out in the world now. Congratulations, Erica. It's really beautiful. And I hope it feels good to hold it in your hands. Erica was one of the first people that I reached out to in, I think 2020 or 2021, when I was first considering striking out on my own as a consultant.
00:03:53:09 - 00:04:23:11
Katina Rogers
She gave me rock solid advice then, and it's fantastic that her wisdom and insights are now available to anyone who's considering this journey for themselves. Erica's writing is clear and accessible, and I know she would say that this has been, you know, a labor of many to bring it to this point. But her voice really shines through, and she offers both personal reflection on her own path and concrete, actionable advice that I think we many of us, really need.
00:04:23:12 - 00:04:42:19
Katina Rogers
It's powerful, in my opinion, to have a business development book that's specifically targeted to folks with deep humanities training. There's so many things that are particular about our skills and our strengths, as well as the challenges that we face and some of the hangups we might have. And it's so clear throughout the book that Erica really gets it.
00:04:42:21 - 00:05:01:09
Katina Rogers
So as far as what to expect from the next hour, Erica is going to start us off with a reading and then, I will ask Erica, Crystal and Sophia a few questions and conversation. And then we'll leave time for audience questions and discussion before we wrap up. So Erica, over to you.
00:05:01:11 - 00:05:22:05
Erica Machulak
Thanks, Katina for that lovely intro and Ai for everything you've done behind the scenes to make this make it possible that we are all here in this virtual space together. And that always amazes me when things come together. And you're a big part of that. And Katina, it's just such a privilege to have you here as our moderator.
00:05:22:05 - 00:05:42:14
Erica Machulak
And Soph and Crystal here together, we're crossing a lot of time zones with this panel. Katina is in New York City, is in Melbourne. Crystal also in New York now. And I'm in Vancouver. So, thank you, everyone, for for making this this time work and being here, it's it's very special to me. And, with that.
00:05:42:15 - 00:05:43:01
Katina Rogers
00:05:43:01 - 00:06:12:10
Erica Machulak
I'll just read a little bit from my intro. This is a little section cheekily entitled This Is How We Save the World. Launching a startup in the first year of the pandemic was, for me, an experience of chaotic, continuous learning. As I filed the papers to claim my business name, I imagined myself curled up in my reading nook, sipping tea and leafing through a curated list of books and articles about entrepreneurship, industry trends, and personal growth.
00:06:12:12 - 00:06:35:05
Erica Machulak
When I met with my first client on my first day open for business, it became immediately clear that the market had other ideas. All of my curiosities about entrepreneurship came together in one urgent question what can I offer to the person right in front of me in exchange for real money? The answer to this question sparked a cascade of new ones.
00:06:35:07 - 00:07:01:23
Erica Machulak
How much should I charge? What should the contract say? Where, when, and how would the project unfold? How would I collect payments? Every one of these questions created new threads that were deeply satisfying to unravel. Even as I listened to my banks hold music and squint my eyes at tax collection regulations. The monotony and anxiety are made more bearable by the enjoyment I take from figuring things out that serve a purpose and move my work forward.
00:07:02:00 - 00:07:25:12
Erica Machulak
Being a business owner continues to fill me with agency, curiosity, and joy. In addition to the many challenges that come with starting any business. The cultural moment. This cultural moment was particularly complicated as ours is now. When I launched Hikma in October 2020. The world was still trying to figure out how to keep spinning during a pandemic that would clearly last a lot longer than many of us had anticipated.
00:07:25:14 - 00:07:50:22
Erica Machulak
Employees took flight and masks, and the Great Resignation University scrambled to build virtual classrooms, and graduate students and administrators alike watched the tenure track evaporate even faster than it was doing before the pandemic. The Black Lives Matter movement and biblical level climate catastrophes demanded that funders, businesses, universities and individuals take a hard look at their social and climate responsibilities.
00:07:50:24 - 00:08:17:02
Erica Machulak
As I started my business, I faced constant reminders that the world was literally and figuratively burning down around us and that we need change in deep, complex ways. The polarization of our civic dialogs, and difficulty of connecting decision makers with reliable information added fuel to the fire. A cursory look at the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals shows how much work we have to do, and the many pathways needed to save our planet and the people in it.
00:08:17:04 - 00:08:43:19
Erica Machulak
While there are any number of technologies that might solve targeted problems, inventions alone will not save the world. Physical and digital products must be complemented with people who can interpret context, anticipate the implications of new ideas, and monitor the implementation of new tools for unanticipated consequences on our world. The systems level change we so desperately need requires people who lead with empathy and thrive in ambiguity.
00:08:43:21 - 00:08:50:14
Erica Machulak
The world needs humanists. Thanks.
00:08:50:16 - 00:09:15:20
Katina Rogers
Thank you. Erica. Yes, the world does need humanists, right? Yeah, I'll leave it there. Could each of you start by telling us about your role in creating the book? All three of you played a really different part, and I would love to hear a little bit about what that look like. And if you want to tell us even a little bit about your process, for writing or illustrating.
00:09:15:22 - 00:09:17:19
Katina Rogers
We'd love to hear it.
00:09:17:21 - 00:09:44:10
Erica Machulak
I suppose I can go first. I kind of got this thing going. Yeah. This book came from an inside higher Ed. article that I wrote, before I technically started my business. I was on the last 30 days before my contract ended in my previous role, which was the knowledge mobilization role. And I wrote a piece about the value of humanities PhD skills to different professional sectors.
00:09:44:10 - 00:10:10:14
Erica Machulak
And I actually wrote this piece because I thought I was going to be starting an op ed business, and I figured that I should have a couple of op eds. This was head base from one of my mentors at the NEH. And, what I actually discovered is that as soon as the piece came out, days before my business was formally open, I started getting all of these LinkedIn messages and emails and things, asking how I started my business and how other people can do it.
00:10:10:16 - 00:10:32:05
Erica Machulak
And I was sort of like, I haven't, I haven't officially launched yet, but I'll let you know when I figure it out. So we developed a course. I wrote another IHE piece. I started thinking about it and writing about it a little bit more, taking lots of notes, getting tons of requests for informational interviews and all of those questions really fueled the structure of what people needed.
00:10:32:07 - 00:10:56:22
Erica Machulak
So in a sense, the book is just a giant, accessible informational interview with a bunch of exercises and templates and, action items for people who need the mindset but also just want to get it done. And along the way, like we do. So many things that hit my age, it was really important to me to engage people in the process and make sure we were getting multiple perspectives.
00:10:56:22 - 00:11:14:17
Erica Machulak
And I also really wanted this thing to be beautiful. And so that was when I reached out to Sophia van Hees, who, maybe was our creative director at the time. I think you hadn't moved to Australia yet, but so and I had known each other for years before this. We collaborated in many ways and size that, hey, I want to do this thing.
00:11:14:17 - 00:11:36:01
Erica Machulak
Do you want to help? And she was on board. So really, every chapter we were thinking about what the images would look like alongside the text. I also pitched to Peggy Solic, who's in the room. It was a fabulous editor at Rutgers. Up, a little ways in, while I was starting to get this proposal going, I said, hey, Crystal, we'd met a few years ago.
00:11:36:01 - 00:11:52:15
Erica Machulak
I loved the way that she thinks about black women in entrepreneurship, and it brings a totally different lens to this work and a totally different kind of rigor. And I wanted her voice in it. So I said, would you consider writing the foreword? And we went back and forth about what that could look like. And thankfully she said yes.
00:11:52:15 - 00:12:12:22
Erica Machulak
I'm sure she'll talk more about that. And then early in the process, I knew that I wanted Amanda Bohne to do the index. Along the way, I should say Katina and others gave me really excellent feedback. Stacy Hartman's idea, to include personas in the book, which I think really made it so much stronger and more alive.
00:12:12:24 - 00:12:23:09
Erica Machulak
So this really was, just the best example I can give of what an entrepreneurial community should look like from start to finish.
00:12:23:11 - 00:12:28:22
Katina Rogers
I love knowing all that. Sophia, do you want to tell us a little bit about the illustration process?
00:12:28:24 - 00:12:53:24
Sophia van Hees
Yeah sure thing. I think it's best to reflect on it because it's been such a, like a relatively long time since we kind of started this. And yeah, as Eric mentioned, we've known each other for, years now. It's actually we worked together briefly at UBC. When we first met. So I've been sort of involved to make my from the very beginning.
00:12:54:01 - 00:13:25:15
Sophia van Hees
I was around when Eric was founding the, the name my business and figuring it all out. And she, I guess the first way I was involved in designing the logo. So she kind of been, from the very beginning, kind of establishing the sort of visual identity of a Hikma as a business. And sort of gradually got more and more, involved in lots of different ways.
00:13:25:17 - 00:13:54:07
Sophia van Hees
But in terms of the, the book project, I guess that was in two components that I, worked on. The first was the narrative for images. So there's sort of a, an illustration for each chapter, which we tried to sort of set the theme for the content for each chapter. And then the other component was all of the, yeah, all of the little diagrams and exercises and things sort of scattered, scattered throughout.
00:13:54:09 - 00:14:28:09
Sophia van Hees
Yeah. I guess having already worked with Hikma and Erica for years. We sort of already had established the, the style. And I guess the main points to sort of talk about is the, I guess the whimsical kind of nature of them. Sort of, approachable, whimsical, which I think really helps counter the sort of more traditional business texts where, you know, it's all about disruption and, you know, fast growth and scales and things.
00:14:28:09 - 00:14:54:15
Sophia van Hees
So we were just sort of trying to make something warm and inviting and, yeah, something a little bit quirky and unique as well. So, that's sort of where the narrative images came from. And then in terms of all the exercises and, diagrams and things, a lot of those actually came from the workshops and training programs that, Erica developed while I was working at Hikma as well.
00:14:54:15 - 00:15:18:11
Sophia van Hees
And so that has a bit of a background in, yeah, sort of testing those out in different in different ways through different programs. And developing those along the way. So they had a, you know, a long history as well. I guess the biggest learning curve for me, in the process was, designing for a printed book.
00:15:18:12 - 00:15:56:12
Sophia van Hees
So a lot of the work I had done previously was digital. So it was for, you know, the website and social media. And even the work I was done outside of, Hikma has been, yeah, colorful shapes and things. So thinking about, designing the, the images for a book that needed to the black and white, you know, to be like line drawing so, you know, the, the restrictions of, of the sort of printed form that was a big learning curve for me and something that Erica and I worked closely together to figure out.
00:15:56:14 - 00:16:18:06
Sophia van Hees
You know what? What are the dimensions of the images? What are the line widths? You know, how are we what's the workflow going to be? And we worked really collaboratively, I think. It was always really fun getting at the idea of show the narrative images, and I get a little text or a voice message saying, what do you think of a cat under a tree?
00:16:18:06 - 00:16:40:10
Sophia van Hees
But the leaves the money? Okay. I can work with that. And yeah, I would sort of send back, you know, sketches of things and she'd have great feedback. And. Yeah, it was really that's a really great process. I think we worked really well together. And because we already had a strong relationship. Yeah. It was really fun.
00:16:40:12 - 00:17:08:09
Sophia van Hees
And yeah, the other part of it was Erica was still writing the book while I was doing the images. So things changed along the way. Different ideas came up, you know, the the structure change. There was, you know, an extra chapter added or the chapter was split into two. So, you know, there was a lot of, I guess, mirroring, mirroring the, the themes of the book, you know, we had to change the scope, we had to figure out what the deliverables were.
00:17:08:09 - 00:17:29:20
Sophia van Hees
So I was really sort of going through the process of what was in the book. Well, while working on the images for the book. So, yeah, it was a bit messy in that way. But yeah, I guess that's just a little insight into kind of the work that I do and, and how we worked together and, and where everything came from.
00:17:29:22 - 00:17:51:07
Katina Rogers
Thank you. That's so interesting. And I'm just thinking about my own writing process and imagining, like, inviting someone else into that process along each step of the way. Sounds honestly really hard. And it's it's a testimony to your collaboration that you've been able to, to do that so well together from the very beginning. Crystal, how about you?
00:17:51:08 - 00:18:33:06
Crystal Marie Moten
This, I'm so interested in hearing the, the creative process that you say everyone has used to to write, to create, their portion of the book. And I'll note that, as Erica mentioned, my work and particularly my research as a related to black women and business was really the formal work of a historian looking into the archive to understand why and how, black women were creating businesses, often in response to the workplace that they were in.
00:18:33:08 - 00:19:20:04
Crystal Marie Moten
And and many times we can we can see entrepreneurship, especially for people who are underrepresented or minoritized as a way to resist oppressive and injustice and just unjust, excuse me workplaces. And that is what I was seeing with black women in the types of businesses they were starting. But I was I was particularly interested in the types of businesses that black women were starting that were, number one, concerned about community and then also built with community in mind because as I thought about black women in entrepreneurship, it wasn't just about or just for individual capitalist gain.
00:19:20:06 - 00:19:55:23
Crystal Moten
And so the women who I studied in the urban Midwest during the mid 20th century were thinking about their businesses and entrepreneurial practices with the broader social and economic justice goal in mind. And so that is what I found when I looked at, for example, the story or the, the, black beautician named Mattie Deweese, who started a black cosmetology school in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in the 19 or late 1930s.
00:19:55:23 - 00:20:27:16
Crystal Moten
Early 1940s because there was a crackdown on unlicensed black beauticians, and black beauticians because beauty school was segregated, they were not able to study for and prepare for a state licensing examination. And so Mattie Deweese, who had went to school in Chicago, migrated to Milwaukee, decided, oh, I'm going to take this exam, get licensed, then I'm going to create a school so that other black women can take the exam and get licensed.
00:20:27:22 - 00:21:02:08
Crystal Moten
And so you see the way in which entrepreneurship. Right. The reason for it happens because of a connection to and concern for a broader community in the sustenance of it. It's maintained by that same community. And so I was finding multiple examples of that as I was studying black women, as I was studying black women in an urban industrial landscape where supposedly in Milwaukee, you could get one job in the morning and change and get a different job in an afternoon if you were a white man.
00:21:02:10 - 00:21:52:17
Crystal Moten
But if you were, a black woman, that was not so easy. And so then thinking about entrepreneurship, as a way out, a way through, an unjust landscape. But in terms of what I wrote for the foreword is not about that. I used the opportunity for the foreword to write actually about my own personal experience, thinking about my professional career as a humanist and how as I grew up as a working class, person from the South Side of Chicago with very circumscribed, opportunities or thoughts about who and what I could be and how I wished that a book like Hustles for Humanists had existed when I was young.
00:21:52:19 - 00:22:21:22
Crystal Moten
Not because I thought, oh, I'm going to be an entrepreneur or business person. I think differently now. But because the book challenge challenges you to think about more expansive possibilities. So use the skills of being a humanist, right? There is a toolkit that humanists learn and carry with them as they make their way through the world. And you don't just have to use that toolkit to become a tenured professor.
00:22:21:24 - 00:23:09:24
Crystal Moten
And I didn't know that. And so had I known that, I would have done a bit more career exploration prior to setting myself on the pathway to get a PhD to become a professor now, luckily I have been able to do career exploration as a humanist, but I've done that as I've worked, and everyone is not as, fortunate to be able to be in work environments where they can explore their career and professional opportunities, which is why I think this book is so important to get in the hands of as many people as possible, and they are thinking about what they want to do with their lives, with their skills, with their talents,
00:23:10:03 - 00:23:33:22
Crystal Moten
with their goals. Especially especially as we need more humanists in the world, everywhere in the world, everywhere in the world. So I, Erica, asked me to write the foreword. And it took me a little while because I didn't quite know what I wanted to say. But then I just started writing, and that's really not my process.
00:23:33:22 - 00:24:00:05
Crystal Moten
I just don't start writing. But I just started writing. And because this was really a personal essay of sorts, it flowed out of me. And of course, more revision and rewrites happened. But the main ideas of what I wanted to write, how I got to be, where I was, but then also thinking about, this idea of using the master's tools to dismantle the master's house.
00:24:00:07 - 00:24:31:04
Crystal Moten
And many times we think about money as a master's tool uncritically, uncritically. Right. And I wanted to problematize that a little bit, a little bit in, in the foreword. So I gesture toward that. But that was my process was really inspired by Erica and her decision to write this book. And really excited to be among these creatives trying to do this work to expose humanists to broader possibilities.
00:24:31:06 - 00:24:42:22
Crystal Moten
As we think about, the world we live in and the work that we must do to contribute to and save humanity.
00:24:42:24 - 00:25:01:06
Katina Rogers
Thank you. Crystal and I gosh, I love knowing that about your research work, too, about the emphasis on entrepreneurship, not as a, you know, not as a solitary venture, but as a way of embedding more deeply in community and of rising a tide collectively. I think that's probably something that we'll return to later in the conversation, too.
00:25:01:08 - 00:25:21:13
Katina Rogers
But I think that's a really unusual way of thinking about about business and about work and about entrepreneurship. So one thing I wanted to ask you all is building a business or really any kind of hustle requires taking a lot of risks. And as I think has come up already in conversation, it requires adapting when things do not go as planned.
00:25:21:15 - 00:25:38:10
Katina Rogers
I'm curious to know from any of you how do you deal with that part of the process? What are some elements that are uncomfortable for you and how do you manage to either sit with those or work through those, or really both? I would imagine.
00:25:38:12 - 00:26:06:06
Erica Machulak
A risk taking, there's so many things I can say about it. So one backstory to this book that I kind of mentioned lately, and then has become more and more real throughout the book launch is, I got pregnant while writing this book, and I had my baby Karim, back in October. And I had him I submitted my copy edits to Rutgers nine hours before my C-section.
00:26:06:08 - 00:26:32:04
Erica Machulak
Which I would not recommend to anyone. It's kind of funny. In the US, a lot of people I tell this are like, oh, wow, good for you with admiration and people in Canada's horrified, it's, different, different ways to different work cultures and ways of thinking about how we engage. But, by necessity, through life with Karim and mom life and figuring out my new parameters.
00:26:32:06 - 00:26:53:10
Erica Machulak
This was almost directly coincided with Hikma's five year birthday, and I had already said, we're going to figure out how this business goes. I'm gonna give it five years, and I'm going to evaluate whether this is something I want to continue, whether I want to change it. And, you know, he really accelerated that. That milestone had to happen.
00:26:53:12 - 00:27:31:19
Erica Machulak
So I started doing this new thing. I had kind of ambientally heard of it before, but still felt new to me. Maybe some of you have heard of it. It's called saying No to stuff. Which is, you know, not something I was very good at before, before Karim in the early years of my business, trying to establish my reputation, I, kind of had in mind that every clan got one all nighter, and that one of the things that differentiated me from people who did the kind of work that I was doing in other spaces, was, you know, that I could do that hustle in the sense of just working
00:27:31:19 - 00:27:57:13
Erica Machulak
really hard, getting things done last minute, and took a while for me to realize that that really wasn't the core of my value, and to kind of figure out that the business was going pretty well and my reputation wasn't being built on. Thank you. Katina. Yeah, that's a better approach. I had some things I had to unlearn through figuring out how to manage a team, how to work with clients, how to.
00:27:57:15 - 00:28:22:05
Erica Machulak
Most of my clients are academic. So setting boundaries in an environment where people are not used to attaching their labor to time and money and having to explain you know, what's what's feasible, what's possible, where I really think I can bring the most value without being a workhorse all the time. So, you know, with that, since Karim, I've started setting limits.
00:28:22:05 - 00:28:52:20
Erica Machulak
I've started thinking about the kinds of work that really excite me. And I've started giving myself permission to prioritize projects that align with my values and figure out, how to do that in an economically sustainable way. And I have to say, the book has been a huge part of that. The book launch has given me all kinds of feet in doors and opportunities to work differently and do more training where I can plan ahead and have confined time and just build different kinds of partnerships.
00:28:52:22 - 00:29:07:24
Erica Machulak
But saying no does always feel like a risk because you're wondering, you know, is another opportunity going to come along. And the answer is always yes. Just takes time to trust it and to recognize the opportunities when they come your way.
00:29:08:01 - 00:29:21:16
Katina Rogers
Yeah. Saying no is really hard. I maybe I maybe okay on the lack of all nighters, but, saying no when you don't know what's coming down the pike is really tricky. Sophia. Crystal, do you have anything you want to add to that?
00:29:21:18 - 00:29:30:09
Crystal Marie Moten
Can you read? I can you restate the second part of the question? I know it's partly about risk, but I want to make sure I'm thinking about the whole question holistically.
00:29:30:11 - 00:29:45:07
Katina Rogers
Yeah. How how do you deal with things that don't go as planned? And what do you what are the pieces that are uncomfortable for you? Whether it's, you know, as Erica was saying, setting boundaries with clients or maybe something a little different, how do you work…
00:29:46:02 - 00:30:12:23
Crystal Moten
That is such a good that, dealing with things that don't go as planned? That is such a good point to reflect on, because my my entire career as a professor didn't go as planned and it didn't go as planned because I didn't like it. And for I had to admit that to myself. I had to admit to myself that not liking being a professor didn't mean I failed at it.
00:30:13:00 - 00:30:40:23
Crystal Moten
Right? It is when I didn't like it. And the reason why I didn't like it is because I truly didn't know what it was. Because remember I said no career exploration. Exploration, right? And so, not things not going, as planned. That's life, but I think it's it's how we deal with it. And so, how what I've learned over these years, and I've had many different career changes, career pivots.
00:30:40:23 - 00:31:18:04
Crystal Moten
I call myself a professional wanderlust because I don't stay too long in one place professionally, and I used to judge myself for that. But now I no longer do. Conversation for a different moment. And actually the topic of my second book. But one of the things that I give myself permission to, similar to Erica in saying no for me is permission to refuse, and it's to refuse to be exploited, refuse to be mistreated, refuse to be silenced, and refuse to stay in a place where I am fundamentally unhappy.
00:31:18:06 - 00:31:54:04
Crystal Moten
And so that's one thing for me. And then, hand-in-hand with that is in that refusal, I have to trust myself, trust my instinct, because my instincts will never lead me wrong. That has been my experience. And so it can be risky to, to, you know, come out and say all your professional wanderlust, you don't like to stay long at one place, especially as a humanist, because humanist, we are expected to be at a place forever, because we have to be so grateful we have a job in the first place.
00:31:54:06 - 00:32:15:12
Crystal Moten
But if that job is slowly draining you of your humanity, then what do you do? Right? And so for me, the risk was in understanding that I had gotten myself into a place that I didn't want to be, and trusting myself enough to know that I could change, and that the world would not come crashing down around me.
00:32:15:12 - 00:32:24:07
Crystal Moten
Instead, I can build new worlds, right? Because I'm in different places in and using my humanness toolkit in different places.
00:32:24:09 - 00:32:28:01
Katina Rogers
Thanks, Kristen. Sophia, how about you?
00:32:28:03 - 00:32:57:22
Sophia van Hees
Yeah. Interesting question, because I feel like in a way I'm quite risk averse and, in some ways, but then in other ways, you know, I've made impulsive decisions and move countries and change jobs. So, yeah, I think I like what Crystal said about trusting your instincts. And, you know, I named my business Brave Snails Design. Now, design the word brave in that, for me, that sort of means.
00:32:57:24 - 00:33:20:17
Sophia van Hees
Yeah, trusting your gut, knowing what's right for you, making decisions based on not what other people think of you or think you should do, or pleasing other people, but what it feels true to you. And, and one piece of advice that I thought years ago that has always stuck with me is your next decision doesn't need to be your last decision.
00:33:20:17 - 00:33:48:23
Sophia van Hees
So, yeah, sometimes going that, you know, agonizing about I think at the time I was trying to, decide which which city to move to. And someone said that to me, and I just thought it just took all the pressure off, you know, I know that I can figure things out. So if it's not the right thing, something else will come up and just sort of trust that that I'll be able to figure it out.
00:33:49:00 - 00:34:13:09
Katina Rogers
I really love that. And I just as all of you are speaking, I'm thinking how much for me personally, the ability to trust those instincts and to to hold those boundaries, to refuse to say no has come with age to and that as I get older. So yes, there's like a groundedness and a rootedness that starts to feel, more organic and in a way that I think is really good.
00:34:13:11 - 00:34:34:09
Katina Rogers
Thank you all for sharing that. One more question I'd like to ask you all before we open it up, I see some really good questions from audience members in the chat. But I want to return to the idea of community and also to Joy. Both of these are really undercurrents throughout the book there I can hear them and the, the things that each of you are saying.
00:34:34:11 - 00:34:59:12
Katina Rogers
And, Erica, I know this is something that you also work to enact at Hikma, and so I would love to know, from you, Erica, you know how you put this into practice in your business? And from Sophia and Crystal, if you have thoughts that you'd like to, you know, to add to that, as far as what you see or how you experience joy and community in your work, I would love to hear from each of you.
00:34:59:14 - 00:35:02:17
Katina Rogers
Erica, over to you first.
00:35:02:19 - 00:35:26:17
Erica Machulak
Yeah. Sure thing. They kind of go together for me. Bringing people together is joyful. You know, I, I'm not sure whether I'm an extrovert or an introvert or kind of a mix or want to put a label on it, but I have always gotten a lot of satisfaction, out of bringing people together and kind of creating the spaces to see how connections happen.
00:35:26:17 - 00:35:54:07
Erica Machulak
And that's really what I see Hikma doing in a lot of ways. And so we've been able to experiment with that in different ways. And there are so many things I could say about joy. But another thing about my business that really brings me joy is teaching. And, you know, facilitating is a form of teaching, working with clients to help them reach clarity on what they're doing or find alignment with partners.
00:35:54:09 - 00:36:23:02
Erica Machulak
Through my knowledge mobilization work, that's a big part of a different form of teaching. Teaching, I should say nonhierarchical peer to peer working with people. Sort of in ways where there's mutual respect. But one of the most challenging things and joyful things about the business is creating a team. And bringing them together. So we have Ai Mizuta, Heidi Rennert and Ali Watson in the room.
00:36:23:04 - 00:36:51:00
Erica Machulak
I'll ground the Hikma team right now. Ali supported by Carolyn Veldstra, the UBC Arts Amplifier. Thank you. Carolyn. And managing a team is really hard. It was a skill that I had no experience with. Took a long time to figure out how to create that space. And learned a lot from my baby and that experience, how to kind of figure out how to get work done when I want everyone to have flexibility and be able to thrive in life outside of work, too.
00:36:51:01 - 00:37:12:16
Erica Machulak
So that balance is hard, but it really feels like we're all learning together and we're I hope my team agrees that we're at a spot where we can kind of share feedback and ideas and move things forward in ways that are organic and get things done that make sense for the opportunities that we have at hand. And I just love that learning and feedback piece.
00:37:12:16 - 00:37:20:02
Erica Machulak
It brings me a lot of joy in doing it with people rather than by myself. It's a very joyful.
00:37:20:04 - 00:37:25:10
Katina Rogers
Love that Sophia, Crystal, anything you want to add?
00:37:25:12 - 00:37:52:08
Crystal Marie Moten
I can, I can jump in. I'm thinking again about humanists in particular. Particularly I'm thinking about historians and about our work as usually, singular or solitary, independent in archive, trying to understand something by yourself. And only when you have a draft of something do you share it to get some type of, you know, peer review.
00:37:52:08 - 00:38:29:22
Crystal Marie Moten
But then that's anonymous, right? And what I love about thinking about community and particularly thinking about work in community, is how much more, you can learn, know, grow, experience when you do things together. And for me, in my research, I look at the way black women think together and how when they think together, they're able to come up with solutions to the most pressing concerns that their communities are experiencing.
00:38:30:02 - 00:38:51:11
Crystal Marie Moten
So, so community is vital is not an option, right? It's not an option for, for the women that I study. But then I also think about the flip side of of that or not the flip side, but the connecting question about joy. And I agree with Erica that it to me, it does. It does work hand in hand.
00:38:51:13 - 00:39:36:23
Crystal Marie Moten
But I also think about this idea of loving your work and how in capitalism, you know, capitalism would exploit that, right? You love your work so much you never take a break from it. And so there's this balance between loving your work and the joy that comes from that, and the fuel and energy you have from that, but also not being exploited is to me, is is always this complicated interplay between, you know, the joy that I feel in doing work, participating in humanistic inquiry, but also knowing that we live in a capitalist society, that, you know, the there always has to be a product, right?
00:39:36:23 - 00:39:56:05
Crystal Marie Moten
And you just can't be in community just because you want to at work. Right? There has to be an outcome. And so I think there's this interesting tension, between loving your work, between being and community and, and the resulting kind of thought is that, like, you know, the more the more people, the more money we have, right?
00:39:56:09 - 00:40:13:22
Crystal Marie Moten
So it's like all of this is so interesting for me, but, community and joy do go hand in hand. And love of work, a love of one's work which I interpret as one's passion, one's purpose in life, also contributes to that.
00:40:13:24 - 00:40:17:17
Katina Rogers
Thank you. Sophia, how about you?
00:40:17:19 - 00:40:45:19
Sophia van Hees
Yeah, I'm just, thoughts coming up as I'm listening. To Erica and Crystal. For me, yeah. Joy is really the foundation of my creative work. It's at the beginning of personal designs kind of came from, you know, while I was doing my postdoc and was sort of deep in research in, you know, cognitive neuroscience.
00:40:45:21 - 00:41:12:00
Sophia van Hees
I went to see a psychologist and she said, you know, what's something that brings you joy? And I just immediately thought of drawing. And they got me back into my creative life and, sort of haven't looked back from there. So for me, it's like the absolute foundation, but community is really what keeps it sustainable. I think.
00:41:12:02 - 00:41:26:00
Sophia van Hees
So, yeah. Connecting with people like Erica, people in the Hikma collective. I see Jill on the call, yeah. That's what that's what keeps it going. So yeah, I think it goes really hand-in-hand in that way for me.
00:41:26:02 - 00:41:49:04
Katina Rogers
Thank you. This is just wonderful. And I'm still mulling over the even just the phrasing of, you know, loving one's work. And to me, that always brings to mind, the idea of vocational, that librarian for Betsy at Tara has, has articulated, that it can be this lever of manipulation to say, oh, you love what you do.
00:41:49:04 - 00:42:12:02
Katina Rogers
That's great, that means I don't need to pay you. And in fact, that, you know, that doesn't mean that we should shy away from that joy. But also that joy is embodied, and we need to be able to eat food, and, you know, these things all go together. And so thinking about the ways we do that, the ways we do it in community, the importance of relationship within all of this, feels really central.
00:42:12:04 - 00:42:33:19
Katina Rogers
And so I do I do want to open it up to other folks in other voices who might have questions. Erica. Shelly, shall I ask? I know you had some questions that you wanted to maybe ask. The other folks who who supported this book process, shall I start with those, or shall we go to the audience?
00:42:33:21 - 00:42:51:21
Erica Machulak
Let's start with those and then go to the audience and just remind folks, if you have more questions. I see a couple really good ones here for Marcella and Anna. But if you have any others, please, please add them. And if I can, just before I do add one more point of joy, one way that I sustain joy is by celebrating my wins.
00:42:51:21 - 00:43:16:12
Erica Machulak
I preach this to everyone all the time, and this is a huge celebration here, but also just little things. So I don't have it on my desk right now, but, one of the things my partner bought me when I started the business, my first birthday present, Soph knows this was a it's like a plastic buzzer. And when you hit it, it goes, it plays the song from this busker I love who goes, I make some money and then I do my happy dance.
00:43:16:12 - 00:43:33:18
Erica Machulak
And so in the very beginning of the business, every time I would get a new client, I would do that. And, you know, slightly up to my standards for what gets the happy dance. But just finding, even if it's a cup of coffee, Soph and I used to do this every time we had a win, just, find a way to celebrate your wins all the time.
00:43:33:18 - 00:43:39:00
Erica Machulak
Not just the huge ones. But. Yeah. I'm sorry, Katina. Please go ahead.
00:43:39:02 - 00:43:52:01
Katina Rogers
No, not at all. I had to mute myself because I was laughing so hard at the buzzer. That's fantastic. Thank you. So, like, I would love to ask you, if you don't, if you don't mind coming off mute, what excited you about this book when Erica first brought it to you?
00:43:52:03 - 00:44:12:11
Peggy Solic
Yeah. Speaking of joy, I, will tell you all that, I've been at Rutgers University Press for about four years now, and Erica's proposal was one of the very, very first proposals that came into my email when I started at the press. And I, I don't know if y'all can see my arm. I've got goosebumps right now.
00:44:12:11 - 00:44:37:07
Peggy Solic
I had goosebumps when I read her proposal. The piece that she read to all of us today, I believe was in some form or another part of part of that proposal. And, yeah, every time I, I hear or read, the world needs humanists. Like, I get, I get goosebumps. I think there were there were two things that really drew me to the proposal.
00:44:37:07 - 00:45:10:21
Peggy Solic
And one was Erica's clear defense of the humanities as needed, and necessary in this world. And, the other was her, sort of fierce belief that, the skills that you develop as a humanist, matter and that you can use them and as, a former humanities grad student who came out of graduate school battered and bruised, that part of her proposal felt like salve.
00:45:10:23 - 00:45:32:02
Peggy Solic
Even though I've been out of grad school for quite a long time now, it really, it felt like it was healing a part of me that I didn't know was still broken, from grad school. So, I, I loved in particular those those two pieces of it. But, you know, I think all of it. And and I will say, too, I loved working with Erica on the book.
00:45:32:02 - 00:45:51:05
Peggy Solic
We would have, zoom meetings where we talked about, again, speaking of community and joy and, connection, we would have zoom meetings. Would we talked, we'd talk about, sort of all the exercises and, you know, should should they go in this chapter or do they fit better in this chapter or, and it just it was truly a joy to, to work with her.
00:45:51:05 - 00:45:57:00
Peggy Solic
So, I'm so excited about about the book, but yeah. Anyways.
00:45:57:02 - 00:46:18:13
Katina Rogers
That is so lovely. Thank you so much for joining today and telling us about that. I feel like we often don't get to hear from the publishing side of the process. So it's it's really lovely to remember that there's lots of folks that are invested and excited in the process. Which also leads me to Amanda. As as the person indexing the book, you probably know this book better than almost anybody.
00:46:18:15 - 00:46:30:21
Katina Rogers
I would love to know if there's anything that struck you as you were doing this. It's not. You know, that's not a role in the writing process that I know well. So I'd love to hear more. About what what, what you came away with.
00:46:31:11 - 00:47:07:24
Amanda Bohne
Yeah, I mean, I don't think I know it as well as as Erica knows it for sure. But, yeah, one thing that stood out is that, like, because Erica and I were talking when she was launching the business, and and during Covid lockdown, sometimes I would see things. I would think like, oh, I remember that, which is, which is an unusual thing, for me, when I'm indexing, like, usually, I usually the book just comes to me at the end of the process, and sometimes I don't know the person other than other than when I'm writing the index.
00:47:08:01 - 00:47:49:17
Amanda Bohne
But one other thing is really, just how, flexible Erica's expectations for the readers are. Like, like so much of the book is really about discernment. And so there is an assumption that you are going to, completely change everything that you're doing and, and, and, and start a business that takes up everything like, and that's, that's why the, that's why the hustling part of it is so important, right, is because sometimes the hustle is on the side, and sometimes it's not.
00:47:49:17 - 00:48:12:02
Amanda Bohne
And, and part of part of what she's helping you work through is, is figuring that out and that, that also means that, it's a really good quality that the book isn't like, this is what you're going to do, and this is how you're going to do it. It's like, this is how you're going to figure it out or this is going to help you figure it out.
00:48:12:04 - 00:48:33:21
Katina Rogers
Yeah, I love that thinking about like readerly flexibility as well. That that's not like a particular angle that I thought of, but that's really true. In the case of Erica's writing, let's see it. Ai and Heidi, do you want to pull some questions out of the, the questions that have been asked in the in the chat?
00:48:33:23 - 00:48:34:20
Ai Mizuta
Yeah, sure.
00:48:34:22 - 00:48:35:19
Katina Rogers
Oh, perfect. Thank you.
00:48:36:00 - 00:48:39:07
Ai Mizuta
So we have a question.
00:48:39:09 - 00:49:04:18
Ai Mizuta
From Marcelo. Am I pronouncing your name right? So, congratulations on the launch of the book. It's much needed.Could you speak about the process that led to the decision to write a book as the most suitable channel for sharing the knowledge and wisdom it contains? Would you be willing to share some insights into the decision making process?
00:49:04:20 - 00:49:31:21
Erica Machulak
Totally, and thanks, Marcelo. And for those in the room who don't know him, Marcelo is, just an amazing, knowledgeable and knowledge mobilization specialist who's been doing this for a long time so she knows the processes of working with community and making research accessible inside and out. It's a really great question. I only wanted to write this book with an academic press.
00:49:31:23 - 00:49:50:21
Erica Machulak
I knew that there were a lot of other potential audiences for it, but I wanted to write specifically for humanists. You know, has it's for humanists, the title is a little bit cheeky, and it's sort of meant as a front door that will open for people who are open to thinking about their work in this way.
00:49:50:21 - 00:50:15:20
Erica Machulak
And if you're totally against the concept of considering a different perspective on, you know, then then it's not for you. So there's a little bit of self-selection there. And I really wanted to find a press. That would work with me and would be open to exploring things in that way. It's not a conventional academic text, but I wanted academics to feel that they had permission to explore it.
00:50:15:20 - 00:50:50:05
Erica Machulak
And I think going with the going with the up has, helped to overcome some of the barriers in my own business that I find as just the automatic stigma against nonprofit. The look and feel of Hikma, the work that we do, leads a lot of people to assume that we're a nonprofit. And even though a lot of the ways that we work are really not that different from a nonprofit, except for our tax structure, I have I've been in meetings with kind of academic admins who, when they realize we’re for profit, the whole tone of the conversation changes and, you know, you feel like a little bit like a snake oil salesmen.
00:50:50:05 - 00:51:10:18
Erica Machulak
And so there was a little bit of feeling like I was on the margins of academia and trying to find a way back in that felt organic to me. Certainly. We've been able to do book launch events at Harvard and Princeton, at Penn and the University of Connecticut, and I don't think the university press label is the only reason.
00:51:10:18 - 00:51:28:21
Erica Machulak
I think it is one. The book is also very affordable. I wanted it to be something that grad students could buy. I wanted it to be something that people could write in. I'm a medievalist and so the material text is fascinating to me, and I have geeked out over all of the parts of this process, and I love to write.
00:51:28:21 - 00:51:48:22
Erica Machulak
So for a lot of reasons, it's it's the channel that felt accessible to me. But it's also been kind of a starting point or maybe a midpoint because of the work that came before it and went into it to develop training programs. So we just ran our first Find Your Inner Founder course. And that's a way of completely expanding on what the book has been.
00:51:48:24 - 00:52:23:20
Erica Machulak
We've got a workbook that we've been working on, this this book launch celebration will be part of our podcast episode. We've thought a lot about this, particularly with Kath Burton of Radically Hopeful about different futures and different ways to make make the work accessible and expand it and bring more people into the conversation. But that credibility that comes with, a book from an academic press was was a piece of it that I think has created more space within academia instead of just beyond it, to build some of those bridges.
00:52:23:22 - 00:52:29:22
Erica Machulak
I know we have a question from Anna next. Anna, would you like to ask your own question?
00:52:29:24 - 00:52:35:17
Anna
Erica, have you learned how to fire a client yet?
00:52:35:19 - 00:52:37:00
Katina Rogers
Thank you for asking.
00:52:37:02 - 00:52:58:24
Erica Machulak
Yeah. Thanks, Anna. Thanks for giving me a chance to flex some of the actual kinds of advice that we have in the book. And for those of you, Anna, when I did my internship in the Office of Publications at, the NEH, read many drafts of my early, you know, mid-career, mid program grad student work.
00:52:58:24 - 00:53:12:14
Erica Machulak
And so she is the reason that this book is legible. Anna taught me how to write for, for everyone. And so I'm really grateful to her for that and for that question.
00:53:12:16 - 00:53:38:23
Erica Machulak
But yeah, there are a few different strategies. Some of them may be a little controversial. One that I've been experimenting with recently is charging more. So this is firing clients and sort of deterring clients without having to explicitly say no is to say this work is very complex. Or if you want it on this timeline, it's just going to have a higher cost to it.
00:53:39:00 - 00:54:08:00
Erica Machulak
Like I mentioned earlier, I've been able to be, very discerning these days. And lucky we have a solid reputation for the knowledge mobilization work that we do. We have a lot of requests, and so I'm able to choose clients that I want to work with and projects that I really feel invested in. And so pricing is one way to get around that is to say, the only feasible way for me to do this is to do it at this price point.
00:54:08:02 - 00:54:25:05
Erica Machulak
Another is simply to say no when additional requests come in. I talk a little bit more in the book about drawing boundaries and saying no or yes to extras and deciding why you want to do that. And some of it is about whether you want this client to come back, whether you want to continue the relationship with them.
00:54:25:05 - 00:54:42:09
Erica Machulak
And so the reason that I will fire a client is rarely because they don't have the resources to pay me at a certain level. If I've already worked with a client once, I'm pretty open to doing quick work for them. It takes a lot to build that relationship once you have it. I consider them a partner and I really want to keep it.
00:54:42:11 - 00:55:04:11
Erica Machulak
But for clients who just aren't on the same wavelength, yeah, I think there are delicate ways to say that's not feasible right now and put it in their court to really follow up if they want to, or to just say, you know, I think I think this particular step to be feasible for me is going to be beyond the budget that you've given me or whatever.
00:55:04:11 - 00:55:26:12
Erica Machulak
And in some cases, you know, if they do meet that budget, then I'll do the work. But, you know, sort of find ways to not put the same effort into building that lasting connection by doing the extra 15 minutes of the zoom meeting or, you know, following up or proposing ways to add future value and so far that has worked pretty well.
00:55:26:12 - 00:55:32:13
Erica Machulak
You just kind of gravitate toward the relationships that that make sense.
00:55:32:15 - 00:56:08:14
Katina Rogers
It's such a good question. And I think for me, that's been something that's really been challenging, is feeling like it is okay for me to, you know, to to price things in ways that reflects the relationships that I value in the work that I want to do. And, it feels very tricky. But I really appreciate that's one of the reasons I really appreciate this book, is being able to have some guidance around what that can look like in ways to, you know, to, to work in an ethical way that feels integral to who you are in the work that you're doing while still meeting your own needs.
00:56:08:16 - 00:56:28:11
Katina Rogers
So I have really loved this conversation. I've heard so much, you know, from from the beginning, hearing Sophia talk about the whimsy and warmth of the illustrations has just really stuck with me. As far as, you know, the, the dynamic that, Erica has also strived to create in this space and in her work at Hikma.
00:56:28:13 - 00:56:46:19
Katina Rogers
I love that joy and community have recurred throughout the conversation. And, and just feel really grateful that so many people could be here today, to to talk about this book and to celebrate it. So, Erica, I'd love to turn it over to you for the last word.
00:56:46:21 - 00:57:08:11
Erica Machulak
Absolutely. I thank you, everyone, for being here. I was I've seen a Katina before the call that for, you know, all of the book launch things that we've done, leading up to this, this one made me the most nervous because it felt like mine and ours. And creating a space always feels like more of a risk than than showing up for someone else's.
00:57:08:17 - 00:57:25:20
Erica Machulak
I'm just so grateful that you've all come here to join and be a part of this, and everything that we've done along the way. I hope you stay in touch. I see we have more questions. We'll find a way to answer them. Through a different Hikma channel or just through out can reach out to me for coffee.
00:57:25:20 - 00:57:40:14
Erica Machulak
But, I hope you enjoy the text. I hope you share your thoughts about it. I share it with people that you think it'll help. And yeah, I hope you find ways to celebrate your own wins. And please tell us because we'd love to hear about them.
00:57:40:16 - 00:57:55:13
Erica Machulak
And thank you, Katina and the panelists. This was awesome. I'm so glad we finally found a way to to all be in the same place at the same time. That in itself is kind of a miracle. So just overwhelmed with joy. Appreciate everybody being here.
00:57:55:15 - 00:57:59:20
Katina Rogers
Well, everyone's wondering when you're going to write the sequel. So who?
00:57:59:22 - 00:58:01:09
Erica Machulak
Yeah. Got some ideas.
00:58:01:11 - 00:58:12:18
Katina Rogers
Sophia and Crystal, thank you so much for your insights. And Ai and Heidi, thank you so much for everything that you've done to help make this possible. And thanks to everybody for being here since.
00:58:12:18 - 00:58:18:06
Sophia van Hees
Right. The pleasure.
00:58:18:08 - 00:58:42:24
Erica Machulak
We hope you have enjoyed this episode of the Hikma Collective podcast. I'm your host, Erica Machulak, author, medievalist and founder of Hikma. This episode was managed and produced by Ai Mizuta, Heidi Rennert and Sophia van Hees. Matthew Tomkinson composed the original music you hear now in his capacity as Hikma’s 2022 Artist in Residence. You can find shownotes links and transcripts on our website hikma.studio/podcast.
00:58:43:01 - 00:58:58:24
Erica Machulak
Hikma is situated on the traditional, ancestral and unceded territory of the hən̓q̓əmin̓əm̓-speaking xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam) people. We are so grateful to be here and to share this space with you. Wherever you're listening, make sure you know whose land you're on.
